I've DL and used 20 over the last few days. This one was an accidental find.
Do yourself a favor and find it for yourself.

Avant.

MM<--not kidding

"Mr. Majestik" <nohere@amigo.com> wrote in
news:aafe0a7a5323eb386fa76948360e8942@news.teranew s.com:

That would be well and good, but Avant is not a browser. It is merely an
extension of Internet Explorer (a shell, if you will). Let's see the
features:

Flash Filter (available in Mozilla Firebird)
Built in Pop Up Stopper (Available and on by default in Firebird)
Mouse functions (middle click opens new tab, mouse gestures available with
an extension in Firebird)
Multi-window browsing (available in every browser, unless you mean MDI, in
which case Opera has it beat)
Built in Google Search (Available in Firebird)
Records cleaner (Available in Firebird)
IE Compat (I'd really rather not have a security hole like ActiveX around)
Skins (Available in Firebird)

Basically, if you are currently using IE, you may like the new shell. If
you currently use Firebird, this would be a complete waste of a download.

--
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email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
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DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote in message news:Xns94341CB86E5A3Wobbly@216.168.3.30...
Basically, Demon, you're correct. And since I have respected your opinion
for some time ( I usually post under MM^^), I've TRIED, AND TRIED to get
used to Firebird. I mean, I've DL and installed it, and Mozilla for months,
and can't seem to like it one damn bit

Now, I HATE to use a M$ product. Which is the reason I've been trying out
all the rest........I mean *every single one*!

Yes, it's a shell using the MS engine. But it works SO fine, like Opera
*used* to work. It's intuitive, it takes the hassle out of surfing,
and............I'm used to the familiar interface. If it had a stand alone
engine, I'd BUY the thing, something I wouldn't do for Opera or any other
right now. Can I (not me, I mean "can one?") make Firebird act like this? In
any case, with all your time in the comp seat, it may seem simple to *you*.
Not me, I'm getting too long in the teeth...........

MM

"Mr. Majestik" <nohere@amigo.com> wrote in news:vrbns11b3mgu65
@corp.supernews.com:

I fail to see why you could not set firebird up as I stated. My girlfriend
managed to do this by herself, and she is far from a geek. She required my
assistance to set up a USB CD burner which was basically:
Plug burner in
Put CD in drive
Click "Next" and "Finish" and stuff

My working theory is if she can set it up, anyone can. I also consider it
a testimonial to the program with her. She ran into some problem (someone
else on the machine accidently or purposely removed some files it needed),
which meant she couldn't use firebird until I had to go and look at why it
would open, and immediately exit. I said "You can still use Internet
Explorer until I get home" and she said "No, I'll just wait, it isn't worth
the hassle without Firebird."

I may like it because it isn't IE, and it's designed to do things "The
right way" and not the "Microsoft way", and stuff, but she doesn't give a
rat's butt about any of that and just thinks it is a more enjoyable web
surfing experience.

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email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
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Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
email/IM for rates/services

DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote in message news:Xns9434265C230CBWobbly@216.168.3.30...
Nice one.............However, and here's the deal for anyone that works on
Firebird.............

Sure, I got the setting to work fine. After all, after about 100 re-installs
lately, I've got the experience.........I didn't DL the plug-ins, however,
and the standard skin was fine.

The *problem*, for me, and for those like me, is that it's not worth the
trouble to re-learn all the methodology to do stuff that *should* be
intuitive. Maybe MS uses a better Q group (a crowd that rates various stuff
for mfg's). Or maybe I've just learned the MS way due to simple repitition.
But, I think not. I LIKED, and used the old Opera for a long time. It too
was a great browser. (till they killed it with bloat).

What I'm saying it this: "From the install, using Mozilla <or Firebird> is
counter-intuitive. It's a pain to use. I can't see under the hood and don't
care much. Sure, I'd LIKE to not use M$, like I'd like not to drive a Ford.
But I'm driving a Ford if walking is the alternative.

MM

I couldn't help myself..........I was thinking about this and decided to
post to my own post

An analogy:

I used to build race car engines. I did nice work. I always used the best
parts, the best machine work, the best assembly. For example, I'd spend $13
more for chrome moly rings, because they would seat faster and last longer.
I would spec new rod connecting bolts, better quality, never stretch and
cause a blown engine. The drivers (buyers) couldn't care less. They only
cared about how fast they could go, and how much money it cost. *I'd* only
buy my own stuff, (if it were me buying), but most didn't care much. I
learned a lot about marketing...........

The point is this. I've come to believe that Mozilla, Firebird, T-bird, and
even Linux is built BY geeks FOR geeks. Sure, it's nice to know the stuff
inside, but the majority will never know, or care......You want people to
embrace Firebird? Mozilla? Linux? Then take my feedback for what it is:
Valuable currency. You can't shop for it, you can't buy it much. Your
*perspective* is wrong.

Take my previous post. I told you *why* I liked the new *skin* or browser
and why. I told you why I didn't care much for Firebird........IF the
builders of this (better under the hood) browser would emulate the one I
like, and do some research, I guess they would find out:

Users want an intuitive browser. They want one they can relate to.
They do NOT want to have to tinker under the hood to make it work. (forget
DL plug in's, tinkering and all that)
They have other things to think about. They don't care how *great* it is.
ASSEMBLE a product that does all the heavy lifting. Make it easy to add-on
extras. Make a no-brainer product.
Get some feedback from other class objects. You know, the ones that aren't
geeks. THIS is your market.
If you build only for geeks, then these will be your only customers. It's
too small a base to work.

Anyway, just some thoughts for wanna-be programmers

In news:3a16f3fe1bf68cad2624d62361f581c1@news.teranew s.com,
Mr. Majestik <nohere@amigo.com> wrote these words:

| I couldn't help myself..........I was thinking about this and decided
| to post to my own post
|
| An analogy:
|
| I used to build race car engines. I did nice work. I always used the
| best parts, the best machine work, the best assembly. For example,
| I'd spend $13 more for chrome moly rings, because they would seat
| faster and last longer. I would spec new rod connecting bolts, better
| quality, never stretch and cause a blown engine. The drivers (buyers)
| couldn't care less. They only cared about how fast they could go, and
| how much money it cost. *I'd* only buy my own stuff, (if it were me
| buying), but most didn't care much. I learned a lot about
| marketing...........
|
| The point is this. I've come to believe that Mozilla, Firebird,
| T-bird, and even Linux is built BY geeks FOR geeks. Sure, it's nice
| to know the stuff inside, but the majority will never know, or
| care......You want people to embrace Firebird? Mozilla? Linux? Then
| take my feedback for what it is: Valuable currency. You can't shop
| for it, you can't buy it much. Your
| *perspective* is wrong.
|
| Take my previous post. I told you *why* I liked the new *skin* or
| browser and why. I told you why I didn't care much for
| Firebird........IF the builders of this (better under the hood)
| browser would emulate the one I like, and do some research, I guess
| they would find out:
|
| Users want an intuitive browser. They want one they can relate to.
| They do NOT want to have to tinker under the hood to make it work.
| (forget DL plug in's, tinkering and all that)
| They have other things to think about. They don't care how *great* it
| is. ASSEMBLE a product that does all the heavy lifting. Make it easy
| to add-on extras. Make a no-brainer product.
| Get some feedback from other class objects. You know, the ones that
| aren't geeks. THIS is your market.
| If you build only for geeks, then these will be your only customers.
| It's too small a base to work.
|
| Anyway, just some thoughts for wanna-be programmers

Very good points, and your comments match my own.

I tried Mozilla for several months. I wanted to like it, because I
want to get off the MS bandwagon, but unfortunately found little things
quite annoying. For example I wanted to be able to sort my subscribed
newsgroup names into alphabetical order instead of the order I
subscribed to them. It should be a simple matter, but none of the
fixes seemed to work. Another annoyance was the views, regardless of
how I set them they would seem to take on a life of their own and
change.

The browser was very good, fast but a little strange in parts. Many
pages would not render correctly, including my banks internet banking
page which I used every couple of days. I was forced to use IE for
some pages, and Mozilla for others, and this became annoying.

I have not given up on it, and will download and install Firebird again
in a month or two to try it again - hopefully it will do what I need it
to then.

I will also agree with your comments regarding the under the hood
workings. I have "been there - done that" with the fiddling and
tinkering to get software to work. At this stage I want to be able to
install and run any software I install with the minimum of configuration
needed, and much as I hate to admit it, MS has that side of it right
with the configuration of IE and Outlook Express.

Sorry Mozilla/Firebird fans - I do like the product, it just has a
little way to go in my opinion.

--
Cheers
Oldus Fartus

"Mr. Majestik" <nohere@amigo.com> Ran in the back door and shouted
news:8c20ad7d583ffc20d67010a8f45b1574@news.teranew s.com:

The "methodology" isn't more intuitive in IE, [since you've learned to
use a browser fron M$ from the start], everything else that doesn't do
things like IE doesn't "feel" right.
It *does* take some getting use to, but effort is worth it IMO.
I don't use Mozilla's news group client though, I'm "used" to XNews and I
won't use anything else...

I've only found two pages that I can't read using Mozilla, [1.4], one is
Windows Update, [thanks M$!], the other concerns an Adobe-based page that
uses 3rd party plug-ins.
I can live with that.

--
MrToad

"Mr. Majestik" <nohere@amigo.com> wrote in
news:8c20ad7d583ffc20d67010a8f45b1574@news.teranew s.com:

Examples of things that need to be relearned?

Type into URL bar <enter>
Control + N = New Window
Click link means follow link

What is different?

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"Oldus Fartus" <denisand@netNOSPAMspace.net.au> wrote in news:bp510o$reb$1
@otis.netspace.net.au:

There is nothing that can be done by the Firebird team to fix this. Some
banks code their sites only for IE (screw standards or compatibility).
Capital One went as far as taking extreme measure to block anything other
than Netscape 4.x (which sucks) and IE 5+ by doing:
If Mozilla > 4.0
if not document.layers <block code>
if Mozilla >= 5.0 and not document.all <block code>

Only browsers that are Mozilla 4.0 and higher that support Netscape's
Layers tag or 5.0 and up that support document.all (a propriatery MS thing)
are allowed in. Capital One said there was "Security Issues" with Mozilla,
but refused to talk to anyone at Netscape or Mozilla.org about these issues
and continued to tell people "We are working with Netscape for a fix". The
entire fix to making the browser work without security issues (that never
existed) was to simply remove the browser blocking code.

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email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
website: under construction
Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
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"DeMoN LaG" <n@a> wrote in message
news:Xns943488B0562A6Wobbly@216.168.3.30...
All I see at Cap1 is a requirement for 128 bit encrypted browser.

BTW, Firebird and /or mozilla is just not as good as IE. IMO, of course.

"Michael-NC" <NoAddress@desolate.com> wrote in news:BCztb.2873$tP4.328743
@twister.southeast.rr.com:

That is what they changed. They previously stated that you needed either
Netscape 4.08 through 4.7x, or IE 5+. Firebird and Mozilla are both 128-
bit enabled browsers, and also don't have the same SSL exploits in IE, yet
they were denied access intentionally.

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email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
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DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote in message news:Xns943487A1DEA6CWobbly@216.168.3.30...
You've heard but a sampling of what I've told you. Many more won't post for
a variety of reasons. I'd like to give you specifics, knowing you mean well
and would give good answers, but I can't. It's kinda like this:

When I moved to Guatemala, they said I needed to think in a different way. I
said, "What ways?"

They said, "We can't explain, it's too xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (non translateable),
but you'll grow into it."

The team needs to do some study, and get over their arrogance......sorry.

MM

"Mr. Majestik" <nohere@amigo.com> wrote in
news:cae850adb2c4003523dc2f0523e8eaf2@news.teranew s.com:

See, this is why nothing will get "fixed". I see no problems with the
interface. Control + N is new window. Control + L lets me type a new URL.
Alt + F4 closes the window. This is all exactly the same as IE.

The toolbar in IE goes:
Back, Forward, Stop, Refresh, Home
In Firebird:
Back, Forward, Refresh, Stop, Home

If you can quantify what feels different, I will check and see if there is
perhaps an extension or skin that fixes that and suggest it, or file a
request for enhancement bug on Firebird to get it changed. Otherwise,
nothing can be done to make the browser any better, as you have given
nothing to fix.

--
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email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
website: under construction
Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
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DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote in message news:Xns9436AB9E84A4Wobbly@216.168.3.30...
No,THIS is why nothing will get "fixed" Some fine soul just now posted his
apprehension about new software, and wouldn't have if someone (anyone) would
listen!

One more time for the audience........

Check out the new *skin*. I assume you have...........WHY do I (we) like it
so much? Read the previous posts (mine, especially). This is the way WE
WANT THE BROWSER TO FUNCTION. That's it. Nothing more. No conspiracy, no
MS lovers, we all hate them. But, this is what WE want. Turn Mozilla into
THAT, and allow it to install just as easily, and, WOW, everyone loves the
app. Simple as that. Really.

How about the gang (the ones that make this thing work) do THAT (nothing
more), and then see what will happen? Can this be done? That was the
entirety of my previous (many post) question, Demon.

"Mr. Majestik" <nohere@amigo.com> wrote in
news:09c77e5c020786595dc0885af88efaa0@news.teranew s.com:

I have no idea what new skin you are talking about. I use (and always
have) used the default firebird skin

It does, and has for the past 2 or 3 versions

Turn it into WHAT!? It is visually very similar to IE, renders pages
very similar to IE (though usually faster), and it's default install
automatically does things like block unwanted popups and the like.

Can /what/ be done? What I basically read out of your post is you don't
like it because it isn't IE. There is no functional difference that has
been pointed out. You say:
"
What I'm saying it this: "From the install, using Mozilla <or Firebird>
is
counter-intuitive. It's a pain to use. I can't see under the hood and
don't
care much. Sure, I'd LIKE to not use M$, like I'd like not to drive a
Ford.
But I'm driving a Ford if walking is the alternative.
"

I want examples of how it is a pain to use. You give me back:

"
I'd like to give you specifics, knowing you mean well
and would give good answers, but I can't. It's kinda like this:
<example about moving to a new country>
"

So I ask one more time, what exactly does not fit your needs as a simple,
easy to use browser?

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DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote in message news:Xns943619285C323Wobbly@216.168.3.30...
Ok, I'll bite. (I have no idea why, though You don't want to compare it to
Avant's, right? Well, that's EXACTLY what I want. Simple install.
(not......just unzip to the folder of your choice), I LOVE the mouse
buttons, I love the tabbed windows, (you open them, and switch whenever you
want), I dont' CARE about the keyboard shorts, I can't remember my shoe size
most days.....

I like the skin. although any will do. I LIKE the group for favorites. It's
easy to get organized. Built in Google. Doesn't everyone use it? Stop the
pops, clears history on closing. What else............

The bottom bar shows what's happening. What else............Nothing else
really. IF Mozilla would just do THAT (above) and not hassle me with plug
ins, DL's, tinkering, hassles............then it too would be fine.

Is this what you mean?

I'm no going to jump into the firebird vs. IE argument, because I've never
used firebird, so I can't take an informed view on it. However, if you want
lots of the features that make alternative browsers attractive, but still
want to use IE, I would suggest trying "MyIE2", which is an alternative
shell for IE. I'm completely sold on it. It's free, a very small download,
and works very well, doesn't overwrite any of your IE files, and no need to
install a completely different browser package to get the built-in pop up
suppression, tabbed browsing, and a host of other useful features. It also
has some handy plugins of it's own, like a TinyURL button. Simply click on
the button, and it will instantly take you to the TinyURL site where your
shortened URL is waiting already. Quite cool.




"Mr. Majestik" <nohere@amigo.com> wrote in message
news:vrgvvc1vil1768@corp.supernews.com...

Mr. Majestik wrote:
That is exactly what Mozilla does...EXACTLY. Tabbed browsing,
pop-up blocker, mouse buttons. You are describing Mozilla to a tee! I
would not recomend Firebird to you, because in order to get that
functionality you need to use extensions. This was done like that on
purpose, so people get exactly the browser they want. But I would not
recomend it to you.
BUT (big but) Mozilla and firebird are not the same thing, and you
are lumping them together intot he same thing. I would recomend Mozilla
( ithink 1.4 is the latest version) to you, as you are describing it
exactly. If you like setting up your browser with EXACTLY what you want
get FB, if you want it to do everything right from install, get Mozilla.
I personally use Firebird, and while I agree it has some ways to go,
Microsoft is pretty much going to end up copying everything it does,
while FB is on to bigger and better things.

--
Night_Seer

X-No-Archive: yes

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 00:10:30 -0800, "Mr. Majestik" <nohere@amigo.com>
wrote:

You said it. So far the best, IMHO, version was 5.12. I have
downloaded and tried every release right up to 7.20 and within hours
went back to 5.12

With a couple of tweaks (Courtesy: Axel) it works great - a few sites
it cannot render I does not matter.

--
Sandy Archer
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