I'm looking for a lossless audio codec to capture video. The codec must be
available from the video capture software(s), thus it must be integrated and
be available in my WindowsXP lists of codecs. It must be capable of
compressing 48khz sampling rate.

I use various software to capture/process HuffYUV video such as VirtualDub
1.5.9, Adobe Premiere 6.0, Sonic Foundry Vegas 4.0. Once the processing
done, I use TMPGenc Plus 2.59 to compress the high quality final to MPEG1.

I installed various lossless audio codecs such as FLAC 1.1.0, Monkey 3.97,
La 0.4 and Shorten 2.3b. These codecs work only in command-line or GUI
software. Their codecs don't appear in other video/audio processing
software. Thus can't be called by other software, so they are pretty much
useless for me.

I want to use a lossless audio as an "intermediate" codec. (much like I use
lossless HuffYUV codec for the video track). Presently I capture the audio
track of the video in PCM audio at 48kHz, 16-bit, Stereo. Multiplied this by
8 hours of capture + another 8 hours to process. At this my secondary 80Gig
HD runs out of space in no time.... 50% audio compression would satisfy me.

Joseph Brown wrote:

It might be relevant for you to look into another adobe program:
Audition.

Not my turf, perhaps someone else can suggest something. Audio files do
process very poorly, they tend to be mathematically too chaotic and the
processing overhead may be problematic. 192 or 320 kbit mp3 comes to
mind as a possibly acceptable compromise.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:02:20 -0500, "Joseph Brown"
<joebrown@wdontspam.edu> wrote:

I don't believe such a beast exists. You've looked into the above
formats, and I know that Sony's (was Sonic Foundry) PCA
(<http://www.custcenter.com/cgi-bin/sonypictures.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=Xr8NwfZg&p_lva=&p_faqid=626&p_cr eated=1018933200&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9ncmlkc29ydD0m cF9yb3dfY250PTUmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1wZXJmZWN0IGNsYX JpdHkmcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT0zJnBfcHJvZF9sdmwxPX5hbnl_ JnBfcHJvZF9sdmwyPX5hbnl_JnBfY2F0X2x2bDE9fmFueX4mcF 9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=>)
and DVD-Audio's MLP (<http://www.seneschal.net/papers/mlp.htm>) would
give you the lossless compression you desire, but alas there is no
implementation "on the fly" as you capture, in real time, AFAIK. The
demand for it, with the small amounts of space that non-compressed
audio requires, given todays cheap and huge hard drives is limited.

Normally, the people that cannot tolerate the nearly imperceptable
quality loss (which would more than satisfy the reduction you seek)
you would get using "on the fly" ultra-high bitrate MP3 (>=320Kb/s),
WMA9 (yuck!) or OggVorbis (400Kb/s) are audio professionals.

Although it's NOT the answer you want to hear, your best bet I suspect
will be to pony up for a larger HD.

Joseph Brown wrote:
<snip>
If 50% will do it for you then use the u-law codec. U-law, while not lossless in
the literal sense, will convert 16 bit linear PCM to 8 bit logarithmic scale
samples. If you need even more compression, then ADPCM will work great at that
high sample rate, and cut 75% off of 16 bit PCM.

--
Phil Frisbie, Jr.
Hawk Software
http://www.hawksoft.com

Aren't you asking for the impossible? A lossless audio codec that does
compression? That's an oxymoron. If there's compression, it can't be
lossless. Unless you mean pkzip-type of compression.



************************************************** *****************
** The only good velocity-switch is an inaudible velocity-switch **
************************************************** *****************

Phil Frisbie, Jr. wrote:
....or, as others have suggested, just use an MP3 codec at some high
bitrate (like 320kbits/sec). That will shrink the audio by
approximately 80% and have a completely unnoticible effect on the audio
quality, even after multiple iterations.

Cheers,

C

"SomeGuyOnTheInternet" <SomeGuy@TheInternet.com> wrote in message
news:lTOwb.5923$G1.28015@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
Maybe you should do a simple web search before you speak.

http://flac.sourceforge.net/comparison.html

"SomeGuyOnTheInternet" <SomeGuy@TheInternet.com> wrote in message
news:lTOwb.5923$G1.28015@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
There are certainly lossless compression schemes, like your zip example.
GIF compression can also be lossless if the source image has <=256 colors.
DVD-Audio uses the MLP algorithm, Meridian Lossless Packing to get some
measure of compression, maybe around 50%.

Lossless compression will inherently compress less than lossy compress
(obviously). Also, the compression rate of all lossless schemes is data
dependent. In the best case, like for example an all-black image file, you
can get huge compression ratios. On the other hand, if the data is totally
random, you might end up with no compression, or even a slightly larger file
due to the compression scheme overhead. In general, the more "random" the
data looks, the less you can compress it. Try zipping a JPEG image to see
what I mean.

As for the OP's question, the MLP I mentioned is the only truly lossless
algorithm I know of for audio. And I don't know if it's available as a
Windows codec. Try searching the web, or you could start here:
http://www.meridian-audio.com/

As for using u-law, I wouldn't recommend it as there are certainly losses in
the signal-to-noise ratio (despite the best efforts of the exponential
companding). MP3 or WMA with very high bit-rate would be my suggestion.

SomeGuyOnTheInternet wrote:

Please take care to use the wording bitreduction when it is about
bitreduction.


--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

"Peter Larsen" <SPAMSHIELD_plarsen@mail.tele.dk> wrote in message
news:3FC3CC2F.55F58A5C@mail.tele.dk...
Now that's a good one. Invent a word and then tell everyone to take care to
use it.

YES, there are many bit-accurate lossless audio compressors out there.
Pkzip-type file compressors are not optimized for audio.

Usually, lossless audio compressors provide 2:1 compression ratio (50%).
Yes, they do exist.

The most popular are:
FLAC from http://flac.sourceforge.net/
Mokey audio from http://www.monkeysaudio.com/
La from http://www.lossless-audio.com/
and may others found here: http://flac.sourceforge.net/comparison.html

What I'm looking is for a DLL lossless audio codec that can be integrated in
my WinXP OS and be available and called from any application. I haven't
found any yet.

I noticed that when I load an AVI video with a 48kHz 16-bit PCM audio track,
the highest mp3 that VirtualDub will allow me to encode is 48kHz, stereo,
128 kbps. It can't go higher, even with the "show all formats" enabled.

I installed the extra mp3 codecs as well as Fraunhofer IIS .mp3 Producer
Professional which allows extra bitrates to appear. They don't appear
everywhere.

SO, is there any lossless DLL audio codec that can be integrated in
my WinXP OS and be available and called from any application? I haven't
found any yet.

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:15:28 -0500, "Joseph Brown" <joebrown@wdontspam.edu>
wrote:

If I were to summarize the replies so far, it would be that...

1. There lossless compressors for audio, but none that work as codecs.
2. Using a lossy compression codec at a sufficiently high bit rate is so
close to as good as lossless that you shouldn't worry about the difference.

My only question on that point would be whether the codecs in question take
all 24 bits into account during encoding/decoding, or if they only deal with
16 bits.

Joseph Brown wrote:
You did not look hard enough http://mediaxw.sourceforge.net/Enchanced/about.htm

Media XW says it installs codecs for Monkey's Audio and FLAC that can be used by
Windows programs.


--
Phil Frisbie, Jr.
Hawk Software
http://www.hawksoft.com

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:40:19 GMT, "Phil Frisbie, Jr." <phil@hawksoft.com>
wrote:

Well, you have to look pretty hard, eh? How is it even possible, from that
page, to tell what mediaxw does or does not support.

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:15:28 -0500, "Joseph Brown" <joebrown@wdontspam.edu>
wrote:

It is reported <http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=187285> if
you install the LAME <http://lame.sourceforge.net/> MP3 DLL
<http://www.mp3-tech.org/software/encoders/lamewin32.exe> that you will be
able to use ultra-high bitrate MP3 compression from software such as
VirtualDUB.

I just grabbed the LAME ACM here
<http://www.afterdawn.com/software/dawnload.cfm?software_id=350&mirror=0>,
installed it and sure enough, you now get the ability to capture to
320Kb/s, 48KHz, MP3 (= 40KB/s stereo).

Problem solved.

I **still** like the "buy a bigger HD" solution!

I downloaded the .exe installer and the .msi then installed.

The codecs don't appear in the ACM (Audio Codec Manager), therefore can't be
called by any windows program.

I found a lossless codec called LiteWave that's available in ACM form at:
http://www.clearjump.com/products/LiteWave.html
but it's not free... I e-mailed them and I'll wait for then to see how much
it costs.

I also found Ogg Vorbis in ACM from a German site:
http://www.pctip.ch/downloads/dl/24655.asp

This codec appears in the ACM windows codec manager! and can be called from
virtaully any software. But the problem is that it's lossy. I tried
encoding a video clip with the audio track set at 320kbps with this coded
and I noticed a slight drift...

Isn't there any plans to port FLAC, Monkey or La or any other open source
lossless audio codec to ACM?

Let's start from the top, since the slew of posts were neither concise nor
helpful.

The most widely supported lossless codec is FLAC, which isn't saying much
since the only program I know that can use it for any real-time process is
WinAmp. I really wish it had been incorporated into DVD players, since it
would be great to be able to archive audio to DVD in a way that would be
lossless and playable.

Something other posts didn't mention is that newer lossy compression formats
are NOT better at higher bitrates than older ones. Newer codecs are
designed to make the smallest files sound as good as possible to minimize
bandwidth requirements. MP3 (MPEG-1 layer 3) is optimized at 256kbps, and
MPEG-4 variants (AAC, WMA, etc) are optimized at about 128kbps. But when
there's reasonable bandwidth available, the best lossy codec for higher
bitrates is good ole MP2 (MPEG-1 layer 2), optimized at 384kbps, which is
the codec used on DVD's. But none of them compete with a lossless codec at
ANY bitrate, so it would be really nice to have that option.

As it is, you can only fit about the same amount of 24/96 audio on a DVD-R
as you can fit 16/44.1 on a CD-R. It'd be so nice to fit a whole concert on
a DVD in lossless format...

I don't mind real-time or not processing. All I'm looking for is for an ACM
version of FLAC. That is that it could be called by *any* windows
audio/video program supporting windows Audio Codec Manager (ACM) such as
CoolEdit, SoundForge, VirtualDub, Premiere, Vegas, TMPGEnc, RealMedia
Producer, etc.

Is there any ACM FLAC ? or any plans to port it to ACM?

Joseph Brown wrote:
The people at http://www.openacm.org/ seem to be planning to.

By the way, doesn't Microsoft know that the acronym "ACM" already
means something fairly important in the computer world? :-)

- Logan