I am trying to research info on getting a new camcorder. I've been using a
Sony mini-DV and it has been a good workhorse camera for me. I'd like
something with killer color on it... and most of what I do with a camcorder
is record "events"... day long, several days, etc, consisting of often
several hours at a time. Seldom do I get it all on one mini-DV tape and it
is such a hassle to switch tapes in the middle of things. I like the idea
of the HDD cameras for the length of time I can record, AND for the idea
that it would take a shorter amount of time to tranfer the video to my
computer.... mini-DV being a real time transfer.
As I looked back at the messages here I found one that said "stay away from
HDD and DVD models" in their advice on another matter... and I was wondering
why? I have around $1000 to spend and was wondering if you experienced
people had any suggestions on what I should look at in a camcorder?

Also, on the sound quality... is there anything wrong with plugging the
camcorder directly into sound boards??? Would I blow circuits or do
something bad to the camera???? Just trying to learn...

Sandra

"Sandra Beach" wrote ...
I doubt that you could find an HDD camera with better
than average performance for $1K You might want to
investigate one of the external hard drive units like the
Firestore, et.al. and continue using your current camera.
Another advantage is that you can decouple the camera
performance from the storage medium and upgrade or
replace either of them independently.

If you use the appropriate adapters (which will likely include
a "pad" or attenuator), getting sound directly from the venue
PA system is an excelent way of capturing better audio than
you would get from the on-camera microphone. OTOH, it
also may not include things like audience reaction sounds
(if that is important for what you are shooting?) Of course,
this assumes that your camcorder has a mic input connector.

"Sandra Beach" <sbea@rrv.net> wrote in message
news:zeidnUIunvlc-3DYnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@onvoy.com...
This has been discussed endlessly. Short answer: the high compression,
dependence on mpeg2 on single-pass -the-fly transcoding and "consumer" focus
of HDD machines results in video quality signficantly inferior to that
produced by a miniDV machine.

You can plug the camcorder directly into sound boards, but you run the risk
of an impedence mismatch and/or a ground loop, which can result in hum.

PTravel wrote:
And of course you will want to make sure you are getting to full output.
A Headphone out is a good choice if not otherwise occupied, but again,
test those volume settings in advance!

Thanks, PT, Richard and Ray,

Sorry I couldn't get back on... computer problems. I've been researching a
LOT, and yes I do understand that the mini-DV format is the least
compressed, therefore better quality that the more compressed MP2 on a hard
drive camcorder. However, there are trade offs for everything.
With my mini-DV camera I have to use the LP setting to get 90 minutes of
play from it (reduced quality right there) and most of the time what I'm
recording goes over that time limit, so I need to turn off my camera, take
it off of the tri-pod, switch cassettes, and put it back onto the tri-pod
again... totally missing anything that happened in the meantime.
Also, transferring to my computer is in real time. It is easy, but a pain
also. A hard drive camcorder would eliminate all of that.
I've been looking at the Sony DCR-SR300 due to come out at the end of the
month. In my research I really liked the reviews for the Sony DCR-SR100 and
the 300 is that and more for pretty much the same price.

Thank you all for your advice on plugging directly into a sound board. If
I'm understanding it right, there are things that can happen "maybe" that
would distort the sound or give me a hummm.
Richard, what is a "pad" or attenuator????? Can I blow out anything or
harm the camcorder from being plugged into the sound board???

Thank you, Sandra



"PTravel" <ptravel@travelersvideo.com> wrote in message
news:555lr7F238p5aU1@mid.individual.net...

"Sandra" wrote ...
Actually not "reduced quality". What the LP speed gets
you is increased chance of dropouts. It is writing THE
SAME information on the tape in LP mode as in SP mode
but just moving the tape slower. LP mode is also much
more problematic for "interchange" (the ability to play
the tape on another machine, or even on the same
machine after months/years.)

And if you fed the output of the camcorder into an external box
(particularly one with a hard drive, etc), you would get much
increased recording time with no breaks for changing media.

Or even directly into a computer (like a desktop computer
running DVIO, or Scenalyzer, or whatever edit software you
are using). We have no idea what your situation is, so we
don't know if this would be practical for you or not? Another
option is to use a laptop computer to capture the video in
real time. A capable used laptop may actually be the lowest
cost option.

So the question is whether you can live with...
1) The reduced quality of the video recording (MPEG vs. DV)
2) The (likely) reduced quality of the camera performance
(newer models of camcorders don't necessarily have BETTER
camera performance. but they more likely have fancy digital
effects that you don't need)
3) The added artifacts from whatever post-production (editing)
you are doing to the MPEG video.

The tradeoffs seem pretty clear from my POV. YMMV.

The DCR-SR100 has neither an audio input connector nor
even a headphone jack. That knocks it out of any serious
consideration for decent event videography IMHO. That
makes it suitable only for shooing video of the kids splashing
in the inflatable pool in the back yard. Remarkably enough,
the "top of the line" DCR-SR300 doesn't include an input
connector either. This is pitiful. What did I say about "new"
camcorders not necessarily being "better". I rest my case,
your honor.

A camera running on battery (vs. plugged into the wall)
is very unlikely to suffer from hum caused by ground
loops, etc. Using an audio adapter with transformer
isolation would solve that in any case.

An attenuator is like a fixed "volume control" that knocks
the line-level out of the sound board down to the mic-level
that the camcorder is expecting.

You should ALWAYS be monitoring the audio with a good
pair of headphones. Failing to monitor the audio while
shooting is exactly like aiming/focusing the camera with
your eyes closed.

Plugging a line-level source into a mic input will be
immediately obvious through the headphones and is unlikely
to cause permanent damage to the camcorder unless you
leave it plugged in for minutes/hours. I'd be more worried
about my ears.

Several vendors sell interface boxes specifically for connecting
to the mic inputs on camcorders. The most popular are these
from: http://www.beachtek.com/prod.html

"Sandra" <sbea@rrv.net> wrote in message
news:t8idnQyoq6MIDHLYnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@onvoy.com...
The amount of compression isn't the only problem. The data bandwidth is
also reduced but, most of all, mpeg2 is temporally-compressed, i.e. earlier
frames determine how later frames are compressed. This is best done with
2-pass analysis which, of course, can't be done on the fly.

Nope, that's wrong. You don't lose any quality at all in LP mode. It's
exactly the same data, just packed more closely together. Because the data
density is higher, there is a greater risk of drop outs. However, the
incidence of dropouts is so small for miniDV that this simply isn't a
concern.

So would connecting the 1394 output of a camcorder to a laptop. That's what
I used to do when I didn't want to change tapes.

Right. It's theoretically possible to fry your camera but highly unlikely.

It's a resistance source that lowers the audio signal level, i.e. a volume
control.

In theory, yes, but in practice it 's very unlikely.

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote in message
news:12uv6smne84b03@corp.supernews.com...
OK, I understand that now. Thanks for the info.

Again... I didn't know this. My situation is that I record mostly
"Christian" events.
Concerts sometimes, but speakers mostly (teaching sessions).... like a 2 day
convention where there will
be several speakers throughout the day. They seldom speak under 90 minutes,
or I'll
try to capture some of the preliminary stuff that goes on before them.
Could you translate that please? Uh... you mean mean it isn't a good
trade off?
OK... I understand that I NEED a connection to be able to connect
to a soundboard. Is there a special "audio input connector" or just
using a headphone jack?
Would you have a suggestion on a Camcorder that would be a good
one to look at? I've been using a Sony DCR-TRV38. It is ok, but I'd
like something with better color. I'd say 99% of my video taping is indoors
in big rooms.
I'd also very much like to understand how to record directly into a computer
rather onto the mini-DV. Is there someplace to go that will give me the
particulars
of doing this?


OK... MOSTLY I do plug in, though sometimes I'm on battery.
This is a new area and thank you so much for the link at the end
of your answer. I will go look right away and try to learn about that.
More learning... working with the audio is my weakest point.
I've learned a lot through doing this, but am not very technical on it all,
especially the audio. When "real" audio people start talking together
it is WAY over my head. I'm in no way "professional" but I'd like the
best sound for my videos that I'm able to do. What I have been doing that
has worked the best so far, is to use a monitor plugged into the sound
board,
placing the monitor close to the camcorder mic. Yes... before you shutter
I KNOW it has limitations and problems, but so far it has worked the best
for a loud enough sound.
PLEASE tell me. Or at least what do you think I NEED in a camcorder the
most?
And thanks for the link.

Sandra

"PTravel" <ptravel@travelersvideo.com> wrote in message
news:55a323F22tstuU1@mid.individual.net...
Ah... you sort of lost me a little with the 2-pass analysis. Basically you
are saying
that mini-DV is the best way to capture video??

OK.. I can see that, I'm just a little fuzzy on exactly HOW to do it. I
have a 1394 connection
on my present camera, and would then need a laptop with the same connection.
I use a firewire
cable to transfer from camera to computer. I use Adobe Premier 3.0 as my
editing software.
When I then turn on the camera... what? Do I have to set it up somehow?
Go through some
software? Is this sort of a "real time" capture?
This looks like a good solution and perhaps I should be looking for a
lap-top as
Richard suggested?

What camera do YOU use? As I asked from Richard, what would YOU look for in
a camcorder
used mostly for indoor videoing of speakers/teachers and music programs
lasting from 1-2 hours
at a time??

Sandra

Richard and PT,

Still researching cameras and I found a Sony HDR-FX1 in my price range of
$1000, which is interesting because it
is a LOT less than others are selling it for. And, yes, it does say brand
new. I always wonder what the catch is.

I KEEP running into the High Definition cameras, which I don't really need.
SD is fine with me. I don't have a HDTV nor does anyone I know. What I'm
wondering is... if I do shoot video with an HD camcorder and then make a DVD
out of it, will it play fine on your normal DVD player on non-hdtvs? Does
all the "extra" stuff that goes into the video trip me up or help me? Will
regular non-dv viewing be any better?

I really DON'T need HD (right now, at least) nor do I need a camcorder that
takes still pictures. But I DO want a camcorder that has lots of
input/output places... lots of ways to connect to whatever I need/want to
connect to. I'd like good (great) color, and a camcorder that will do well
in low light, indoor situations. I don't care how big or heavy or clunky
looking it is... I always use a tri-pod... as long as it has good "guts".
Yes, you've convinced me that the mini-DV is the best and I need to learn
about connecting a computer to it for longer lasting videoing. And I need
to learn more about audio stuff.

Should I just keep using my Sony DCR-TRV38 and put my money in other
directions like a lap-top computer, and sound stuff??? Can you give me a
little guidance as to which road would be the best for me? Things are
getting both clearer AND more muddled at the same time.

Thank-you so much for your guidance so far...

Sandra

"Sandra" <sbea@rrv.net> wrote in message
news:i6idnWrYkOK5jG3YnZ2dnUVZ_sSmnZ2d@onvoy.com...
For your basically static shoots, the advice given by PT&Dicky
is very valid. Consider:
http://www.seriousmagic.com/products/dvrack/index.cfm

Much of their distaste and bashing of the newer Harddrive and
MPEG2 HDV technologies is an extreme exaggeration.

You may want to consider any sound recorded by the camera as
perhaps some ambient/audience reaction or as a backup timing
source, the main audio should be recorded from the subjects.
It can be recorded with equipment other than your camera.


Luck;
Ken

"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:gsKdnSqa7dJyvm3YnZ2dnUVZ_qqrnZ2d@giganews.com ...
Thank you very much, Ken for your input.
I will definately look over the software you suggest.
WHAT other equipment other than my camera would be good for recording?

Sandra

"Sandra" <sbea@rrv.net> wrote in message
news:BJqdnVkmR7m6m23YnZ2dnUVZ_tGlnZ2d@onvoy.com...
While not necessarily the best way, it will result in better quality video
than an mpeg2-based consumer camera, e.g. a hard-drive or DVD camcorder.
Also, you mention further down that you edit in Premiere. If you're doing
anything beyond the most simple cuts-only editing, mpeg2 is the wrong format
and will be difficult to impossible to work with.


1394 is sometimes called "Firewire." If you computer doesn't have a
connection (and most do), you can get an add-on card for around $15 (a
little more for a laptop). You need one that is 1394 OHCI-compliant, but
almost all of them are these days.

I assume that's Premiere Elements. Premiere is at 2.0.

Use a program like Scenealyzer Live. It will capture the video in realtime
from the 1394 port and save it to a file (oir, if you want it to break it up
by scenes, to multiple files) wherever you specify. Then it's just a
question of telling Premiere to add the video to the project and editing as
you normally do.

I used to produce a 5-camera real-time-switched show once a year. I ran the
output of my board into a miniDV camcorder and then ran the output of the
1394 port to the 1394 input on my laptop. I used scenealyzer live to
capture -- it worked great.

I use a Sony VX2000 for shooting video. I keep an old Sony TRV20 around for
transferring video to my computer (less wear-and-tear on the good camera).

It depends on how good you need your video to look. Particularly for indoor
shooting, my minimum would be a VX2100, which has extraordinary low-light
performance and puts out better-than-broadcast quality video. The BBC uses
them for ENG (electronic news gathering). If quality doesn't have to be
that high, I'd consider the high-end consumer Sonys or Canons -- sorry, I
don't have a specific model in mind.

"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:gsKdnSqa7dJyvm3YnZ2dnUVZ_qqrnZ2d@giganews.com ...
Are you deliberately trying to confuse her?

Sandra, my discussion (and "distaste") as Ken says is for the standard
definition mpeg2 that is used for hard drive and DVD camcorders. I have no
objection to HDV (which also uses mpeg2), primarily because it's the best
solution for consumer/prosumer high-definition that is currently available.

"Sandra" <sbea@rrv.net> wrote in message
news:i6idnWrYkOK5jG3YnZ2dnUVZ_sSmnZ2d@onvoy.com...
No way in the world will a legitimate retailer sell an FX1 for $1,000.
That's a $3,500+ camera. B&H is the gold-standard for honest and reliable
mail order sales. They've been around for ever, everyone knows them (do a
google search) and they offer good prices and impeccable service.

Here are their listings for the FX1:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...y=15&Submit=Go

Note that the FX1 is an HDV machine, i.e. high-definition. You're going to
need a very powerful computer to edit it and, at the moment, there's really
little in the way of delivery mechanisms -- you can burn your own BluRay or
HD DVDs, but whoever you want to see this video is going to need an HD
television and a BluRay or HD DVD player.

No. You can down-convert, but why bother? The VX2100 is, more or less, the
standard definition version of the FX-1. Take a look at it or the PD-170
(the pro version of the VX2100). The only significant difference is that
the PD-170 has a b&w viewfinder, rather than a color one, which makes
focusing easier, and has balanced audio inputs, which is important if you
want to plug a mike into the camera.

No.

If you're satisfied with the video quality then, yes, a laptop would save
you the trouble of both changing tapes and having to transfer video to the
computer.

It all depends on what you're doing with the video. The TRV38 isn't going
to give you quality remotely approaching what you can get with prosumer
equipment like a VX2100. Perhaps you don't need it, but if you do you have
little choice but to move up to the prosumer grade machines.

"Sandra" wrote ...
Very similar to what I do. Generically called "long-form event
videography" Is this primarily in a fixed location (like a church
sancturay, etc.) or do you have to move around? What are
you doing with these videos? Live overflow coverage? DVD
distribution? Local cable broadcast? etc?

[DV vs. MPEG]
You have already heard from one of the proponents of MPEG
recording and editing. You can judge for yourself from the tone
of the posting and the juvenile name-calling whether that
person (or others) seem to be reliable sources of information.
You should also take into consideration what YOU are doing
with the video (which you haven't revealed) vs. what THEY
are doing with their video. MPEG is likely the best choice for
them, but not necessarily for what YOU are trying to do.

The opinion of many of us is that DV is an excelent production
format with a superior cost/quality ratio. MPEG compression
may be good enough for your purposes (which you didn't
reveal), but certainly the state of the art in handling MPEG
editing, etc. is not where it is for DV. You can save lots of
disc space with MPEG, but disc space is cheap and getting
cheaper literally every day. The other MPEG disadvantages
far outweigh any advantages. At lest in my opinion. You will
likely see further promotion of MPEG here before it is over.

The headphone jack is an OUTPUT and used only for monitoring
the sound while shooting. You ALSO need an INPUT connector
usually a "Mic input") to allow connection to the venue sound system
and/or external mic, etc.

If "better color" is your prime driving factor for getting a new
camera it is possible that the lighting may be a better candidate
for spending upgrade $$$ than a camera. How does your cam-
corder video look when shooting outdoors?

It is not as complicated as it sounds. It is practically identical
to capturing from the tape into a computer for editing, etc.
except that you are doing it in real-time vs. from something
you recorded onto tape previously. I believe you mentioned
the time it takes to capture in a previous post? If you are
capturing from tape, you can just as easily capture live from
the camera.

If you are trying to communicate with them, make them explain
what they are talking about and use language you understand.
If they can't do that, they are dilettantes or poseurs. See if you
can find at least one of the sound crew that you can deal with
in a helpful and professional manner.

That is likely OK for low-budget amateur use, but if you want to
improve the quality of your videos, remember that lighting and
sound may have a bigger impact on percieved quality than the
cost of the camera.

I can't say that I have ANY recommendations for any of the
current crop of camcorders. Most of them seem to be aimed
at clueless amateurs so they use a lot of cheap digital effects
to mask the fact that the actual quality of the camera imaging/
lens has actually declined. Do you have some sort of long-
term strategy for doing video? Just buying the latest whizzy
consumer camcorder isn't necessarily the best stewardship
of your budget, IMHO.

Even if I thought there WERE some good camcorder models
currently available, it would be irresponsible to try to recommend
one knowing so little about what you are trying to do and what
your circumstances are.

On Mar 6, 5:03 am, "Sandra Beach" <s...@rrv.net> wrote:
I have around $1000 to spend and was wondering if you experienced
I defer to those more informed than I for the sound and recording
longer issues, except to say that you've received great advice on
connecting directly to the sound board, and that you should look into
using a laptop or even lugging a desktop to the venue and record via
Firewire and capture software (even the free Windows Movie Maker will
work) directly onto a hard drive. You'll need 13 or so gigabytes per
hour free hard drive space.

I'll address your issue of the camera.
1) Your TRV38 is a fairly good camera for what you want to do. I
think your color issue is due more to lighting and probably distance
from subject to camera than camera video quality itself. I'm guessing
that you are back a bit, zooming in. This loses video quality, esp
indoors. Increase light, or move closer. You camera records 690K
pixels/frame, which is good. It has OK low light abilities. Not bad,
but not great either.
2) You could step down, to a TRV22 because it has a larger CCD and
therefore does a little bit better in low light. Overall it's an
inferior camera, but may do better for your job.
3) Look into a TRV900, which is a 3CCD camera. It's not a current
model, but still much in demand and considered an excellent pro-sumer
camera. It sells on ebay for $650 to $1100. It has good low light
ability for a 3CCD camera and excellent color quality.
4) Don't accept default camera settings. Especially indoors with
theatre type lighting. Play with your TRV38 white balance, and tweak
the exposure settings, and color setting. Esp, try using spot
exposure and manual white balance. Read the manual for this. It's
not as hard as it sounds. You also might set a manual shutter speed
to 1/30 to get more light into the system.
5) I normally recommend new camera buyers look into Hi Def cameras,
and they are now into your price range. However, at this time, they
do not have good low light abilities, so they aren't for you. Even
though you don't need the HiDef now, it takes excellent, generally
better, video than Standard Def cameras, and will set you up for the
future. Not for you, however, at least for now.

So:
A) Get a pad or attenuator to connect to a sound board.
B) Connect via Firewire to a computer of some sort to eliminate
changing tapes and be able to record for a long time. Even consider
lugging a desktop computer around. And/or use an external hard drive
(thru a computer). I just purchased an external 300 gig hard drive
for $89 after rebate. I think there are some external hard drives
that will connect and record to camera directly, but they have some
sort of built-in interface, which makes them much more expense. Be
careful to check everything first. I found out my external hard drive
was pre-formatted, but to FAT32 instead of NTFS so it wouldn't work
for video. Reformat was easy, but it stumped me for a while getting
message disk full or protected.
C) Tweak your camera a bit; shutter speed, spot exposure/manual,
manual focus, tweak up "color" to simulate increasing gain, manual
white balance. Get closer if you can. If possible, move your tripod
closer, run cables back to your position if your physical presence is
not convenient next to the camera. Run a monitor cable, and a
headphone cable; soundboard cable to the camera. Use your remote to
stop/start and zoom. Just protect the tripod from being bumped. The
closer the better your color. Ask about increasing the lighting.
Every lighting change might require resetting the manual white
balance.


Good luck

Jim McGauhey
Washington State

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xp7rt.net> wrote in message
news:55b2osF237f78U1@mid.individual.net...
What I do specifically is to video Christian speakers in my area. Much of
it is in a church sanctuary setting, sometimes they have been in larger
places like Motel banquet rooms, or larger College arenas. I seldom can get
up close, so trying to add better lighting doesn't really work for me. I
must go with what they have. Most of the time I need to zoom in to the
speaker. Sometimes it involves people who are singing rather than speaking.
Sometimes they are performers, sometimes they are simply teachers in one
area or another.

What I do with it is to take it to my computer, and using Premiere Elements
(I first started with Pinnacle, but wasn't happy with all the problems I
had) I do minimal editing. Nothing fancy... just taking out bloopers, etc,
then adding chapter markers, making a DVD of it and offering it for sale to
whomever attended the classes, or convention, etc. I also do the occasional
wedding, anniversary or birthday. I'm in an area who was used to people
making VHS tapes of these same thing, which were SO inconvenient in my mind.
DVD was the only way to go for so many reasons. Audio, of course, has always
been the weakest link. Using the Monitor close to the camcorder mic has
been the best solution so far, though I have noticed in one project a sort
of slight popping and static sound in the beginning. I've wondered if it
was during a time I was fiddling with buttons on the monitor making sure it
was loud enough, etc. It wasn't there throughout the whole thing... just
the beginning.

I've connected with one person and hope it will be more in the future, who
want to buy the DVDs that I did of their event from me (my wholesale price)
and offer it for sale themselves as they go other places. My forte is what
I can do WITH the DVD to "present" it. I'm very good with graphics, photos,
and every form of presentation that is needed to make that DVD "look" very
professional and desirable. What I desire is a quality DVD TO present, etc.
But in the long run, I AM low budget, and a literal one woman show. I'm
seeking quality AND convenience and thought I had found it with the HDD
camcorders. I especially liked the whole idea of using a wireless
bluetooth mic on the Sony HDD camcorders... it sounded like a cool thing to
do and get better sound than I have been without a monitor.
(ECM-HW1 Bluetooth wireless). Besides, the faster I can process a video
into a DVD the better for sales for me, so I also liked the idea of a much
faster transfer to my computer than the real time mini-DV transfer.

As you all have been giving me valuable advice and directing me here and
there, I'm beginning to wonder if I am just out of my league. It all seems
much more professional that what I am actually doing right now. But I am a
fast learner and I usually have learned "about" something long before I
actually start using it. SO.. I'm here to learn all I can.

SO... Do you STILL think I should stay with the mini-DV format? You
mentioned the "other problems with MP2" but didn't say what they were. What
ARE the other problems with it?

Sandra

"Scubajam" <jmcgauhey@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1173384686.163662.245290@n33g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...

One caution. I'm a fan of the TRV900, too, and wish I had bought one when
they first came out. Buying a used one is an option. However, as with any
used camcorder, head hours are an issue -- if the machine has been used a
lot, or not used properly, e.g. used in dusty or humid environments, used
with the same tape over and over, or used with tape that's been abused, the
heads can be worn down. This will effect image quality and can even result
in complete failure of the camcorder. The TRV900 doesn't have a head-hours
meter, so you're pretty much dependent on the honesty of whomever you're
buying it from. Of course, if the OP uses it with a laptop for storing
video live, this isn't a consideration.

Yes, I, too, wondered at the low price for the HDR-FX1... here is their
listing http://www.expresscameras.com/prodet...203738&start=1

I might add that the same place offers the PD-170 camera that you mentioned
at $999 too.
http://www.expresscameras.com/prodet...=28441&start=1

As I said, I'm always wondering what the catch is.

Sandra


"PTravel" <ptravel@travelersvideo.com> wrote in message
news:55asmvF23edoaU1@mid.individual.net...