(a designer friend of mine recently joked that we are all debating
about Quark versus InDesign, while employers are debating about India
versus China)

I've been thinking about this for some time and I can't be alone. A
lot of designers get caught up in the work and don't stop to think
about the big picture of the field.

Some would argue that graphics professionals are the next IT
professionals, that is: highly intelligent, motivated, and talented
people in India and China will do the work we do for 1/10 the cost of
American designers. In fact this is already starting to happen.
Companies are outsourcing their design work to emerging foreign
markets and saving big time cash. I've heard that Goldman Sachs no
longer employs domestic designers for their graphics work and their
high-end PowerPoint presentations; all outsourced to India.

Domestically, wages for design jobs have fallen greatly. These days,
it is not uncommon in the San Francisco Bay Area or New York City to
find jobs requiring expertise in all the latest programs, top-notch
design skills, years of experience, for $12 an hour.

Are we an endangered species? I am not here to stir up shit. I'm
*SINCERELY* curious about what others think about all this, as I am
concerned about the future of this field.

if someone wants to pursue design based on price alone, let them.

they are not the clients i would want to work for anyway.


In article <d55f12cf.0410242147.13793f5c@posting.google.com>,
tovenusandback@earthlink.net (ClonedRipley) wrote:

I think many new startups like to give it a try to hire for $12/hour
works, but I never heard, and seen any decent work produced for any
important project in that rate. If you have, I would really like to see
the examples. They have heard about the outsourcing concept, so they put
out adds, but do they really get any response? and if they do ... do
they get any good results?

I can understand Programming jobs being outsourced. Programming is
basically the production line of software development. Software
engineers are the actual designers, and even in India the outsourced
prices for software engineering are rising. You can train programmers in
2 years, but training good software engineers takes at least twice as
long with good foundation of Mathematics, and Computational theory.


I don't think if IT people could ever do the job of Graphic Designers.
Coming from a Computer Science background I am telling you maybe 80 -
90% of people in this field are very visually challenged. They might
learn to use some graphical software, but concept creation, abstract
thinking, knowledge of Fine Arts, Communication Design, ... ah forget
about it, they are hopeless!!! Graphic Designers are essential, I
personally do respect them a lot.


PS: I didn't know one could produce high-end presentation in power
point? I think even the best designs out there would degrade in power
point!!! It's like putting 80s leg warmers on Catherine Zeta Jones

Rastin

ClonedRipley wrote:
--
Rastin Mehr
---------------------------------------------------
rmd Studio http://www.rmdStudio.com
http://www.netphotography.com
(last update: April 12th 2004)
---------------------------------------------------
"Great spirits, have always encountered violent
opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

I think many new startups like to give it a try to hire for $12/hour
works, but I never heard, and seen any decent work produced for any
important project in that rate. If you have, I would really like to see
the examples. They have heard about the outsourcing concept, so they put
out ads, but do they really get any response? and if they do ... do they
get any good results?

I can understand Programming jobs being outsourced. Programming is
basically the production line of software development. Many products are
designed here and are outsourced for production. Software engineers are
the actual designers, and even in India the outsourced prices for
software engineering are rising. You can train programmers in 2 years,
but training good software engineers takes at least twice as long with
good foundation of Mathematics, and Computational theory.


I don't think if IT people could ever do the job of Graphic Designers.
Coming from a Computer Science background I am telling you maybe 80 -
90% of people in this field are very visually challenged. They might
learn to use some graphical software, but concept creation, abstract
thinking, knowledge of Fine Arts, Communication Design, ... ah forget
about it, they are hopeless!!! Graphic Designers are essential, I
personally do respect them a lot.


PS: I didn't know one could produce high-end presentation in power
point? I think even the best designs out there would degrade in power
point!!! It's like putting 80s leg warmers on Catherine Zeta Jones

Rastin

ClonedRipley wrote:
--
Rastin Mehr
---------------------------------------------------
rmd Studio http://www.rmdStudio.com
http://www.netphotography.com
(last update: April 12th 2004)
---------------------------------------------------
"Great spirits, have always encountered violent
opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein

This whole outsourcing to India thing is a joke. As an example when I was
shopping for my car insurance last week - one of the *main* selling points
of the policy was, 'our call centres don't outsource to India', and I think
that says it all about the subject really (regardless of the field). In my
experience even during simple call centre enquiries complete confusion often
reigns - the thought of managing a web or print design project that way
quite simply boggles the mind.

S.

I think that the company that really want to save money will go and
outsource job to India or China. They will be happy with some contrat, and
unhappy with other, its a gamble. But If this client is to cheap to hire an
experience designer at a reasoneable rate, then they are better off going
oversea.... I woun't want client like that.

I don't know if elance is still working, but this was the worst thing that
happend to designer. Logo contract where won only if you did it for almost
nothing, complete flash web site design was done at ridiculous price. You
could only get contract from elance if you where really desperate, and there
are a lot of desperate out there.

As for local wages, they are dropping dromatically. When I started doing
design 10 years ago, my services where going to the highest bidder, now
school are pupping so many new graphic designer each year that the role is
inverse and agency, and other places offering graphic design job, are doing
the exact inverse. They have tons of very qualified candidates, and are
looking for the best bang for the buck...which is very often, the very
qualified, talented....and despate one.

When you talk about Desktop Publisher, I think they are in less danger. They
can offer their work by contract (by pages), and their experience will
always make a better deal than someone with less experience. I am presently
doing a 500 pages government book, with tables, and I know without a doubt
that I will do it 10 times faster than anyone starting in this business, and
my product will have 10 times less mistake. A good desktop publisher if FAR,
FAR more hard to find than a good graphic designer.

My 2 cents.


"ClonedRipley" <tovenusandback@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:d55f12cf.0410242147.13793f5c@posting.google.c om...

mmmm.
just a thought..

my clients like the personal service that i offer...my (local) knowledge
about their goods and services and the fact that they can put a face to a
name, or they know someone else that knows me. ok, so thats me, i don't work
for the big boys. and i guess my prices are affordable (thankfully not as
low as $12 per hour)

i can't imagine any of them going to india just to save a few quid. (or
bucks, as the case may be)

ruth




"ClonedRipley" <tovenusandback@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:d55f12cf.0410242147.13793f5c@posting.google.c om...

"ClonedRipley" <tovenusandback@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:d55f12cf.0410242147.13793f5c@posting.google.c om...
BLah

Graphic artists been around since man held pissing contests on the cave
walls. Women can't piss worth a shit.

Just depends on where your heart is. Are you free to express yourself,
or are you not?

My grandpa Bomb did some beautiful work at Yorktown in October 1781.

Steve wrote:

For design, yes. For programming and production, no.

As far as call centers, I would much rather speak with an intelligent,
educated Indian than a semi-literate, unmotivated welfare mother on a
back-to-work program who has a ghetto accent so thick that communication is
impossible. Who thought that putting the dregs of society into customer
service positions would be a good idea?

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com






"Steve" <luckylucky200@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OV3fd.35$LV6.16@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...

dregs of society...
well its all a matter of opinion dan....

damn those po' people trying to make a living...

joel.


"Dan" <Dan@Freelance[removethis]Workshops.com> wrote in message
news:Orafd.18046$SW3.1961@fed1read01...

That's the whole point, Joel -- they're not trying. They didn't want to show
up for school and they sure as sh*t don't want to show up for work. You
obviously haven't had the misfortune of having one of them "help" you.

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com





"KungFuFrijters" <joel.frijters@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:g_ydnSuxKdiRpeDcRVn-og@rogers.com...

"Dan" <Dan@Freelance[removethis]Workshops.com> wrote in message
news:UUafd.18058$SW3.12847@fed1read01...
That's why I hope for civil war so I could legally kill you.

I'm still trying to get this goddamned microchip out of my back that
George Bush and the secret service stuck there when they kidnapped,
drugged, and interogated me in 1982.

Exterminate the chrisitan jew cop supreme court

in article cljgak024ug@enews1.newsguy.com, CoLoNeL pOlYpS at
voodoo@dizease.666 wrote on 10/25/2004 11:22 AM:




You are the perfect victim. Always waiting for someone else to do stuff to
you. You hope for "civil war". You wait for "chips" to get out of your
body. You wait for someone else to "exterminate" the supreme court.

You are the perfect victim. You are afraid to do anything without someone
else giving you permission.

I am surprised you can write the words "Kill you" all by yourself.

I think it might even be a good challenge for the industry.
It may force domestic design agencies to actually do something
creative and communicative, rather than the formulaic bullshit
that so many are cranking out.

hehe,
joel.


"ClonedRipley" <tovenusandback@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:d55f12cf.0410242147.13793f5c@posting.google.c om...

"CoLoNeL pOlYpS" <voodoo@dizease.666> wrote in message
news:cljgak024ug@enews1.newsguy.com...
I hear ya.

I'm still trying to get this goddamned pencil out of my ass that
papa smurf and the Scooby doo stuck there when they kidnapped,
drugged, and interrogated me in 1969

Exterminate the smurfs supreme court

"CND" <from@measde.com> wrote in message
news:wgefd.22716$%k.20586@pd7tw2no...
You poor thing.

That's a good one.

In article <aa2dnWvtl6EU_-DcRVn-sg@rogers.com>,
"KungFuFrijters" <joel.frijters@rogers.com> wrote:

businesses. I been a professional designer for many years, and years
ago, often wished that I'd pursued a staff position (when things got
lean). Not so today. I think my experience of dealing with an
ever-evolving market has enabled me to adapt and change with the trends
(for the betterment of my clients).
When I was fresh out of art school, I was fortunate to have an "old pro"
take me under his wings and throw me a few jobs while teaching me about
the "real world." I was able to hone my practical skills. This combined
with learning how to do my craft as a business (and sell my services
directly) were critical to my success today.
Today, I go where the money is. You can apply all the same marketing and
design sensibilities you have learned to any area of commerce that needs
it. There is plenty of work around.

--
To reply by email, replace the word "space" with "renault"

ClonedRipley wrote:

In another thread, we have been discussing design vs. production.

Part of the problem is that many employers view design AS production. It
doesn't really help that, while the two don't have to be mutually exclusive,
they certainly can be. There are plenty of very fast, very efficient
production "artists" out there who couldn't design their way out of a paper bag
-- and there are plenty of wildly creative designers who don't have the first
clue about how to produce their ideas.

Unfortunately for us, companies realize that the latter of the two can be far
more dangerous (to their budget) than the former. So rather than advertise for
"creative thinkers," they advertise for skills in Photoshop, Flash,
Illustrator, etc. -- or they look to outsourcing to cheaper centers of
production (such as out of the country).

It's easy for us to cry "foul" and proclaim that these companies should hold
out for that perfect creative thinker who is skilled in production, but they
are relatively few and far between. When they need work done "right NOW," they
don't have time to filter through the hundreds of applicants.

To make matters worse (for employers), those with the creative and production
skills tend to not last very long in straight production jobs. They join
agencies, start their own agencies, move up to senior positions or go
freelance.

So, for the time being, it seems sexy to these companies to hire cheap or
outsource. But years down the road, the companies doing this will see severe
damage to their brands when their identities have been shaped by some design
sweat shop in India who might have only barely ever seen the products they are
designing for.

And on our end, a long as guidance counselors and technical school recruiters
continue to tout graphic design as being the latest and greatest "get rich
quick" career, there will be a glut of competition for jobs.

But all isn't lost. Here's what I see happening (based on some of the trends
I've seen): Companies will continue to increase their practice of hiring
relatively inexpensive in-house production artists, or outsourcing production
work. At the same time, they will hire professional designers / agencies to
develop the brands, create the campaigns and kick start new ideas.

In short, those with the talent for creative thinking, who also have the
essential technical know-how to back up those ideas, will have nothing to worry
about.

-- Robert
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Freshly Squeezed Design
Robert Wurth - Creative Director
http://www.freshlysqueezeddesign.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deranged Video Dude | DVD Rants and Reviews
http://www.dvddude.net

ClonedRipley <tovenusandback@earthlink.net> wrote:

People who only look at figures on paper get excited about outsourcing
to countries with cheaper labor and may actually even do it...for
awhile. Already some companies with tech support abroad are moving
support back home and advertising that they have done so.

The reality is that there is a high price to pay when dealing with other
countries in this manner. First of all, design is very culture-specific.
I'm not sure that anyone from another culture can create design which
would suit the U.S. audience unless that person were following a
template or educated in design in the country a project is designed for.
I've lived in Japan for 15 years and, for the most part, I can tell what
the nationality is of an artist or designer based on what I'm looking
at. There are different aesthetic sensibilities at work.

Second, the communication problems can be horrific and I'm not talking
about language. Each culture's workers have a different way of doing
business which can be very problematic in international cooperative
work. For instance, my husband is currently working at NEC Mobiling
(which deals with mobile phones) and they outsourced work to India. They
have an Indian liason, who is fluent in Japanese, working full-time in
their office to help with communication. Unfortunately, the Indians have
different ideas about what schedules and written promises mean. Even
when contracts are made and conditions are clear, the Indian company
they are working with does not meet their expectations and the entire
project has been a disaster for NEC Mobiling (such that they lost a
contract associated with the work outsourced to an Indian workforce).

The bottom line is that, even when language is not an issue, things like
deadlines, fees, and requests are perceived differently. Some countries
take deadlines very seriously. Some see them as general time frames for
completion. Some even see misleading statements or out and out lying as
acceptable in business communication.

In the short term, some work probably will be outsourced but unless a
company is quite lucky or the work is very cut and dry (like assembling
parts or creating something concrete like a bit of code), there will
likely be problems that will draw them back to their native market.

I just don't think that design is going to be something which will be so
easily outsourced to places with cheaper labor.

Incidentally, I'm not sure wages in desktop publishing have dropped
because of outsourcing. I think they've dropped because the number of
technologically experienced/competent workers has increased such that
more people are competing for jobs. The larger the pool of workers, the
lower the wages become.

Orchid

The devastating problem with outsourcing is that this process has not
lowered local property taxes--only local wages. So we are on a collision
course with homelessness. It's inevitable, that is, unless we find some way
to drastically slash taxes.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION • FILM SCANNING • DVD MASTERING • AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
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