So I'm wondering...if you have a document, like say yer birth
certificate...could you scan the lil bastard and then just shred teh
original? Or is a scanned copy not legally worth anything? What
about other stuff? Marriage licence? Car title? House deed? Are we
really so backwards that we HAVE to have the paper originals? I mean
I could understand it maybe if they were on some kind of specialty
paper with some kind of specialty printing (like they use for teh
money)...but otherwise, it just seems like I ought to be able to scan
such things and clear my living space of as much dead tree material as
I can.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
get rid of any original of a birthe certificate, marriage license, car
title - and it'll be at least 30 years before we see our house title.
These things don't take up as much room as all the paperwork for taxes,
loan applications for mortgage, cancelled checks and bank statements,
kids artwork and papers and freekin greeting cards from grandparents
that I just can't bring myself to throw away.

On 27 Jul 2006 05:29:44 -0700, "requiem" <fixkitty@yahoo.com> wrote:

Oh I already scanned and backed up most of teh later...the bank
actually scans my checks for me now and I get all my statements
online, updated in near real time (some businesses are still slow in
getting debit card purchases clocked in real time, they treat debit
cards like credit cards). Nostalgia stuff that's of physical
importance I still keep (although I do keep a scanned copy of most of
it just for safe keeping) but that's about it. Car titles, marriage
licenses and so forth I guess should probably be kept in a safety
deposit box and not in your house (or at the very least in a
fire-proof safe)...but I was kinda lookin for ways to save either
money (for a deposit box) or money and space (for a fire-proof safe).
It's too bad they can't make those things debit card sized...ooo they
could even put lil chips on em, it'd make em a LOT harder to replicate
than simply using fancy paper...although the paper on my car titles
isn't all that fancy... *shrugs*

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
(I still have my original!), old savings bonds, and the kids social
security cards and stuff. We moved in November, so I took all the stuff
out. On my "list of things to do when/if i remember" is to buy one of
those fireproof box things - they sell them at most stores (I don't
mention the W*Mart cause I hate them) and I think they're just as good.
You can get small ones too, so they don't take up lots of room.
Seriously - about the size of a shoebox. At least if the house burns
down I don't have to apply for duplicates of birth certificates and
spend a nasty amount of time at the freekin social security office for
new cards.

On a personal note - I am delighted to be having a civil conversation
with you, but expect at any time to receive your wrath - muhahahha
*fiXkitty was here*
:-)

On 27 Jul 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.2600 and heard Onideus Mad
Hatter cry out in news:ftpgc2d5j98r5hs4fjrscf2lav4134en05@4ax.com...


scanned documents are incredibly easy to forge.. granted, rubber stamped
documents are as well, but many municipalities are now moving (if they
haven't already) to special colorized watermarks and page templates

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

On 27 Jul 2006 14:44:37 GMT, ThePsyko <thepsyko@itookmyprozac.com>
wrote:

Not necessarily, if the scanned resolution was high enough, it'd be
near impossible to alter the scanned image without leaving noticeable
traces behind...now if you scanned the image, altered it and then
sized it down, then yes, that would be easy. Or, if you created the
document entirely from scratch on the computer, but then if you did
that one would be able to tell...unless you created it from scratch,
printed it and then scanned it. So all in all I wouldn't call it
"easy"..."possible", yes, but forging most anything is never
"easy"...unless you're talking about the SE factor and taking
advantage of idiots who can't tell the difference and who are quick to
believe without question when you look like you're not doing anything
wrong.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

On 27 Jul 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.2600 and heard Onideus
Mad Hatter cry out in news:kcohc2hjg2lma5o07mecmpg8qggbhmjhin@4ax.com...

True, but somebody who is going to scan in their documents with the
intent to manipulate them, aren't going to scan them in at super high res
(well, I'm sure there are SOME people stupid enough to try). From what I
got out of the scenerio you presented was that these scanned documents
were done by a typical home user.

And we all know where that leads us lol


--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

ThePsyko wrote:
forged - talkin a hs diploma to get into college (accepted) and
receipts for things. can't get through high school but can work the
scanner, illustrator and photoshop pretty damn good . . .

On 27 Jul 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.2600 and heard requiem
cry out in news:1154019399.344053.284490@h48g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...

why didn't they just forge a college diploma?

and a winning lottery ticket too!

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

"Onideus Mad Hatter" <usenet@backwater-productions.net> wrote in message
news:ftpgc2d5j98r5hs4fjrscf2lav4134en05@4ax.com...
make it legal you need for the copy to be a "certified" copy. IOW, a notary
has to certify that the copy is a *true* copy of the original. The
reasoning goes that a copy is far easer to change then what the original is.


--

From the Desk of Sugien
/}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight::::::>
\}

On 27 Jul 2006 09:56:39 -0700, "requiem" <fixkitty@yahoo.com> wrote:

I forged a Progressive insurance card for a couple years, fooled the
stupid cops EVERY time, LOL.

http://www.backwater-productions.net.../Insurance.png
http://www.backwater-productions.net...Insurance2.png

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:17:54 -0700, Onideus Mad Hatter took a five-minute
break from flipping burgers to boot the etch-a-sketch and scribble out:


Valid question, dude.

To be honest, it is up to the qualifying agency. If you are trying to
submit the document to - say your local school district for proof of age
for a child - they may or may not need an original. Mine required one for
my child to enter kindergarten. You can get away with copies for many
things, though, like insurance beneficiary statements (marriage/birth
cert) and some loans
- using the trust deed/reconveyance on a house or a title on a car.

Remember that most recorders and clerks use some form of "special" paper
(it came on the short bus) to print the documents. Some even have an
embossed seal.

I personally keep one copy each of my kids' birth certs and my marriage
cert in a file. The rest have been scanned to PDF-A, which is one of the
accepted standards for archiving. My trust deed and title documents have
all been scanned, archived and the originals shredded. The County
Recorders office has the "original" and will be used in the event I sell
or refinance. (Here in my county, the "original" is kept in TIFF format
on a server. Same goes for all birth/death and marriage certs since '92.)

The one major issue holding up all-electronic recording of these things is
the e-signature. There has to be a method of reliably obtaining and
verifying the authenticity of an electronic document prior to
county/state/federal governments acknowledging them. At this time there
is not an "accepted" method which is agreed upon by the title industry,
the notary association, and the state/local/federal attorney general
offices.

The precursor to all-electronic recording is a variant where a paper
document is used to obtain a notary stamp plus a signature from the
authority (birth/death/marriage certs) and/or the involved parties. Even
there, different states and jurisdictions have divergent paths they are
taking and can take. In California, for example, there are only two
counties - San Bernardino and Riverside - which are even allowed to
use electronic recording. The rest of us 56 counties must wait for the
Attorney General office to define a standard from which they can base
electronic recordings.

Does that answer your question?

--
k

In article <ftpgc2d5j98r5hs4fjrscf2lav4134en05@4ax.com>, Onideus Mad
Hatter took the hamburger meat, threw it on the grill, and I said "Oh
Wow"...

Depends on the document. Like birth certificate, most places want the
original. You made a memo that's gonna sink your company in court? In
that case, a copy would suffice, usually.

I'm not a lawyer, however, so don't consider my response legal advice.
It's my best guess.


--
trippy
mhm31x9 Smeeter#29 WSD#30
sTaRShInE_mOOnBeAm aT HoTmAil dOt CoM

NP: "Damn" -- Matchbox 20

"Now, technology's getting better all the time and that's fine,
but most of the time all you need is a stick of gum, a pocketknife,
and a smile."

-- Robert Redford "Spy Game"