Hi K

We have corresponded before over BT type line stuff and this time I need
your superior advice.

We help a mate who has BT (not very)broadband. Unfortunately he is lucky
to ever get a 1Meg connection and sometimes 700K - as was his neighbour
before he moved.
A recent BT guy who visited to investigate, said it was the router and
he managed to get a new one sent but no better
This is confirmed by Samknows on his phone number and phone numbers of
nearby neighbours and actually asking some neighbours what they get.
Strangely all along the street (therefore on the same main cable)
everyone else gets about 4 - 5Meg.
I have checked the street cable to the BT outside and, even though it is
an oldish plastic 4pair, the whites seem to be the correct pairing so I
don't think it is split pair on that bit.
Unfortunately the pair into the house disappears as an old grey
'dropwire' and re-appears at the NTE as a new 4pair so there must be a
join somewhere.
I might do a check from the block (won't tell on me will you?).

However if no better, is there any way to get a suitably qualified
Openreach person to check for split pairs (strange co-incidence that
next door is bad) at least back to the nearest cab?
Recently Openreach had a purge on joints and checked all down the street
but I doubt they checked for splits.

I have to say 'qualified' as I was recently out helping to sort a
problem with a newish guy (one leg dis making the BB work but of course
not the PSTN) - chatting at the cab (about joining the BT Outside
Broadcast Group - who I have worked with a lot) and I had to explain
line theory and capacitance/inductance/freq response TO HIM and the
problems one can get with split pairs.

Any advice to 'get around the system' would be appreciated.

The guy is actually thinking of trying to sign-up with BT Vision -
letting them sort the pairs so it may work - then trying to cancel!!

Mike

"mike" <mikej@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:474AF034.1010908@dircon.co.uk...

Well in a dire emergency where a cable has been damaged
and one wire of both the remaining pairs have each been
open circuit, I have been known to use one wire from each,
but to split them when both pairs are intact? It shouldn't
happen, but your reasoning is sound, so lets pursue it.

If you and your neighbours lines are in split pairs, I would
expect a measure of audio crosstalk.
Moreover, I would expect to hear the ringing waveform
in your earpiece when your neighbours phone is ringing and
vice versa. The degree of these effects would, of course,
depend on the length of cable with the split pairs, but I would
say even a run of 5 meters would be enough to hear when
ringing is present on the other line.


--
Graham

%Profound_observation%

Graham. wrote:


My thoughts as well. Of course for a simple PTSN, the use of odd wires
isn't so much of a problem but for BB - well!!

At the moment the house next door has just changed hands and he hasn't
got a phone connected so that makes life a bit difficult.
However (if no-one is looking) I might just put a test set on that pair
and listen across while shouting on the other!!

Mike

"mike" <mikej@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:474AF034.1010908@dircon.co.uk...

I just read the (unrelated) bit about one leg dis, its strange you
should mention that because on my job today, which included
setting up ADSL, the PSTN line was dead but broadband
was working perfectly. I couldn't ascertain whether the line
had been correctly jumpered at the exchange, or the whole
caboodle was working one legged.

The problem is further complicated that Openreach's
NTTP is in a different part of the premises and the remaining
part of the cable is the responsibility of the site's network
contractors.

The good news is that the PSTN will never be used, it's
OCB anyway, but I've reported it as a fault, as a one legged
ADSL line may not be too reliable.
Kraftee: is there any way I could tell in a case like that,
without specialist equipment, if the pair went all the way
back to the exchange frame but was not correctly looped
through to the PSTN, or it was genuinely working on
one leg?


--
Graham

%Profound_observation%

mike wrote:
Don't I'll start blushing
First supposition, you are incorrect in your thinking at this point as
there are a few places in my patch where streets have been partially
swapped to a newer scheme but not all the properties where put thru.
I can even take you to some where all the new cabling is in place &
yet no one has been swung over onto it, but I can understand your
reasoning.

??????Confusion the external wiring is old 4pr so where does the
dropwire 3 come into place(old grey dropwire), but you are correct in
assuming that somewhere along the length there has got to be another
block.

It's what I would do in your stead...
Fraid not, the only time (over 5-6 years) I've known a PTO to do
testing on pairs (on an ADSL fault) is one which went all the way up
the ladder to the board. I'm not saying it isn't done, it's rarely
done
Yes I know quite a few guys out there who would split a pair in order
to get 2 working wires, regardless of the future results.

There isn't anything you can do other than flag it up as high as you
can in the managerial tree, even I've had to go that path recently due
to the ineptitude of the support desk. If your line is testing
electronically ok, balanced capacitance, no earth, battery or loop
conditions, there is very little you can do in order to get an
interest in your perceived problem.

(Here comes one of my rambling examples)

I have a row of shops on my patch & every shop bar one can have DSL
services, I've changed the complete routing from exchange to customer,
I've renewed over head & internal cabling, to no effect. All test say
it should (including a line loss reading), checked the ambient RF
field (on the off chance one of their machines is pumping out a signal
just at the right signal to give them grief) but nothing can be done
for them.

(that wasn't so long, was it).
If his speed is that low (& if they check) he won't be able to
progress his order
Sorry to give you hard news, but check for that block before getting
to down hearted, you never know it may be nice & green (green is bad)
it could even have been plastered into a wall, which is just as bad..

Graham. wrote:
If it's properly jumpered, even if it's OCB you should still get
battery blow (at the very least, 9083 out & look for that 50v across
the pairs) & (depending on the exchange) you may still get dialtone.
The only time this won't be true (AFAIK) is on any hot sites as the
DSL line protector (12a I seem to recall) doesn't actualy physically
connect one side to another it induces/couples the signal across via a
large coil so if the end user requires both DSL & analogue services
they will requires 2 protectors, first the 12a & then the analogue
one..

HTH

"Kraftee" <kraftee@b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote in message
news:2f-dnXgM7siaiNbanZ2dnUVZ8uSdnZ2d@bt.com...

No, what I want to do is tell the difference between incorrect
jumpering (pair back to the dslam, no PSTN)
and
one leg dis (but ADSL working, like it sometimes does)
Both conditions will give no sidetone.

Also, if Mike does get mutual crosstalk with his neighbours,
couldn't he peruse it as a privacy issue and get the crosstalk
resolved?
--
Graham

%Profound_observation%

Graham. wrote:
Yes but if the broken leg is any distance from the far end the DSL
cirduit will not normally work. I've also known some DSLAMS not to
supple the DSL signal until the 50v (nominal) passes thru them. The
only way to track down such a fault would be to start checking from
one end (checking with the tester 301 or Hawk) to see if there is any
observable breaks on the pair then (depending on the readings
obtained) going to the next appropiate test point & so on....
He could try that but be prepared for a long hard haul (with possible
charges being continually raised) as the line would (to all intents &
purposes) test ok until if & when there is a PTO assigned & proves
such things as split pairs exist...

Kraftee wrote:

inside but crimps.
A 3 or 4 pair external cable u/g to there and then a dropwire 3 (yes
really!!) on the crimps disapearing into the pointing low down.
Real bodge job!!

the end of the u/g cable.

May have to wait till new neighbour gets his phone/BB and chase it on
the back of a 'new install'

Thanks anyway

Mike

PS I bet you don't have the drawing of the agreed allocation of paper
insulated lead cable on a BT 17 for use on a Televison Outside Broadcast
for minimum crosstalk between the program and control lines or what pair
the Exchange Line and the vision circuit appear on!
(DEL on 15, vision on 14) - he he

mike wrote:
Right, I now know where you are coming from, choc blocks are not
acceptable practice inside a BT66 nowadays.....

But why the blazes did they use DW3, mind you DW3 is perfectly
acceptable if it's in good condition & has been connected properly,
using the correct connectors (normal 8a/b's don't hack it it's got to
be DW Connectors 2a)

May be for the best, but only if you have the correct connectors to
remake the connection, you may have better luck locating & testing at
the internal block, where it changes from DW3 to internal cable. If
you can't find it then that's probably where the problem is anyway....
To right I don't, even 20 years ago all that had gone out the window
for us poor t2a's, don't mention senior tech's or to's because they
were long gone (on the external side anyway) as well.

Thanks K

Yeh just to tidy the thread up and finish it for now.

I was harking back to early BT66s that had choc blocks.
The DW3 disappears into the pointing below fllorboard level and the room
is carpeted/boarded so no way of getting to join.
I have a handfull of crimps (from friendly man) so can do a proper job.
If it proves OK from the BT, I have a heap of the 2pair (plus yellow
steel strainer wire) cable so may replace all.

Mike

(Shades of our Private Wires in Windsor - kept for state occasions -
which were on a 15pair aluminium cable and converted to copper with a
whole bunch of crimps stuffed in the central channel of a BT42 as one
can't terminate ali on the screw terminals!!)

Mike J wrote:
MMMMMMmmm nice..

You've got the kit get on with it & stop wasting time young man

Kraftee wrote:


It wasn't the DW3/join (damn).
(Although a horrible crimp existed in the BT with that combination with
the outer insulation of the DW having to be removed to fit a crimp
suitable for the u/g cable)
Went straight onto the Block with a new NTE/proper cable and gained
about 10K in speed - hardly any difference with a plug-in filter (good
type) or a filtered face plate or with the house wiring connected.
Left router on for several hours and re-booted hoping to re-sync - but
no joy.

Was doing the tests with Dreytek Vigor that shows the spectrum of the
data 'bins'
Not a thing above about 100 and even up to there, horrendous variations
in the lower ones in terms of bits and levels etc.
The s/n margin is surprisingly good at 12dB but line loss is 49dB - a
bit high. We are on the same cable route most of the way and get 8/43and
a sync rate over 6M.
Looks like there is some very nasty 'knotted wet string' in the path.

It all adds up as the sync rate is hovering around 1M which means the IP
profile will have been set to 1M or lower - he gets 500-700K.

Going to have to wait till new person gets phone next door to see if
there is a crosstalk (therefore possible split pair) problem which might
be able to be sorted under 'privacy' concerns.

Other option may be to move to someone like BE who don't use fixed
profiling.


Have to wait till new year now.

Thanks again.

Mike

Hi,
over the last 6 weeks or so I am having frequent interminent synch trouble
with my broadband, the ISP says that BT reports nothing wrong with the line
(even though at times it synchs at 250kbps instead of the usual 2Mbps,
profile down to 135kbps, used to be 1500kbps, actual download by BT speed
test 117Kbps !)
and that I would have to pay extortionate £170 if they send out an BT
engineer !
I haven't got a NTE5, just a brown bakelite connection box, and the internal
wiring is bit of a mess (previous owner/s), but I have connected the router
(and nothing else) at the connection box and it didn't make any difference.
Nevertheless I suspect it would be easy for BT to say it's my problem and
who am I to argue...

As it happens a branch of a tree is now interfering with the overhead wires
across the road from my house, it may or may not be a problem it has been
very windy here, but the phone is fine.
If I 'summon' a BT / Openreach (?) engineer to deal with that, will he be
capable and willing to check the broadband side of things ? I know there are
at least two (maybe even five) spare lines / circuits terminating in the
shared drive, and I would hope that one of them might be better then my
existing line which has had broadband problems before. Are all BT /
Openreach engineers broadband trained ?
BTW my phone line is with Toucan (yes, I know, but who could have guessed it
will be taken over by Tiscali).
Thanks, regards,
Martin

Martin² wrote:
inside or outside.

The ususal way to proceed is to temporarily disconnect everything except
ADSL from the phoneline and try that first.. If that sorts it, its
likely to be something inside your house, and BT won't want to know till
you HAVE tried that,.

The second thing is to see if the phone line when you make a call is
audibly noisy. It should be rock solid., If it is crackling, or faint,
phone up BT and report and ORDINARY line fault and get them to do a
remote test.

Finally, if youu can get a dump of the ADSL stats, post em up here.

Maye be something to be determined from them.

Martin² wrote:
If you report a fault to Openreach all they will do is check the
analogue side of things & if all is testing ok.......you get charged,
simple as that. I'm not aware of any leeway about changing internal
cables, but then again I've been out of the field for just over a
month but I doubt of much has happened. As for the branches of a tree
affecting your O/H cable...you would hear if it is doing anything more
than just touching as the branch would be puting an earth on the line.

To your last question, in my part of the world it's one DSL trained
angineer to 10 CAL/Multi skilled engineers & even if they were they
may not be inclined to test the broadband due to the many constraints
they have put upon them nowadays...

Nat Philosopher:
Although I am stuck on min 15dB SNR (how do I get rid of that ?), the router
starts at ~1500kbps but regularly retrains at lower and lower rate and will
end up at 250kbps unless it is rebooted.
The BRAS profile has dropped again to 750kbps and actual download speeds are
~450Kbps.
I think the large No. of 'Loss of Margin' failures is the significant factor
here.
The last No. in the table is clearly rubbish as the router has only been on
for ~47hrs !
Regards,
Martin

Collected for 1 day 22:52:21
Since Reset Current 24-Hour Interval Current 15-Minute Interval Time
Since Last Event
ATM Cell Header Errors: 22185 8465 5 0:02:44

ATM Loss of Cell Delineation: 0 0 0 0:00:00

DSL Link Retrains: 9 4 0 1:01:18

DSL Training Errors: 2 2 0 1:10:35

DSL Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00

DSL Loss of Framing Failures: 7 2 0 1:10:54

DSL Loss of Signal Failures: 7 2 0 1:10:54

DSL Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00

DSL Loss of Margin Failures: 204 47 0 1:10:54

DSL Cumulative Errored Seconds: 1402 589 4 0:02:44

DSL Severely Errored Seconds: 377 149 0 1:10:54

DSL Corrected Blocks: 33053 12518 15 0:02:53

DSL Uncorrected Blocks: 22430 8599 5 0:02:44

ISP Connection Establishment: 6 6 6 121:51:28

Martin² wrote:
Oh. you have a seriouus line problem.

BT have pushed the SNR all the way to try and get stability.

Fix the line problem then ask BT (via ISP if not BT) to reset the noise
margin.


no, that is not the cause, its a symptom of you connecting at crap speeds.

Take everything off the phone socket - all phones and filters and plug
the DSL straight in. If you can remove teh faceplate and plug in behind..

If that doesn't make life wonderful, get BT to fix the line.