Hi Folks,

While initial checks indicated that 512K ADSL should be available to my
house, now that I've placed the order, apparently BT have done a check
and they have told my ISP (plusnet) that the line quality check has
failed.

I know I'm on a DACS but they should take this off - however they have
not as yet, so my question is - what EXACTLY do they do to check the
line and can they accurately do this with the DACS still in place??

I just don't trust BT and have while conversations with their local
engineers have been very useful and informative, trying to talk to
anyone else on the end of a phone has been a complete waste of time, but
I'm preparing myself for a major battle this time around!!

BTW - if anyone wants to talk techie - feel free - used to be an
electronics engineer so hopefully should be able to handle the jargon
;-)

TIA

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nospam and all that stuff.
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Well I'm no techy but am on Dial up. Up to the moment my next door neighbour
had an extra line put in (with broadband) my dial up was regularly about
48,000 bps. now it is 28,800 bps when I eventually make a connection. Anyway
talking to BT (on the phone) informed me that they had "split" my line with
a DACS in order to accomodate the extra capacity being used by my next door
neighbour. So I kicked up, and they came and surveyed me for a new line from
the local BT box. (underground even!) Today I chucked in the extra
encouragement of (I want broadband and unless you do something I cant have
it because you pinched my capacity) This seems to have done the trick
because they say they will come inside 2 weeks to dig a trench to lay a new
line. Just thought I'd share this with you. (ps am also intending to use
Plus.net)


"Gareth Jones" <usenet@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:+b5CBNa1Dc0$EwD+@nospam.demon.co.uk...

"Gareth Jones" <usenet@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:+b5CBNa1Dc0$EwD+@nospam.demon.co.uk...
They definitely can't test the physical properties of the line with DACS in
place. However, the phrase "testing the line" includes checking their
records to see if the appropriate equipment exists at the exchange and so
on.

The presence of a DACS unit would prevent you getting a clear "pass"
initially (because the DACS unit has to be removed first before they can do
other tests). If they have indeed removed the DACS unit (not always possible
if all other lines are already DACSed) then they can do various tests that
measure the noise, attenuation and crosstalk of the line and predict fairly
accurately whether ADSL will work reliably.

If this test fails, then you are out of luck for now. But ADSL technology
improves all the time and they may have plans to pull new cable to your
area, so it's worth trying again in future, especially if it was a marginal
failure.

--
Phil McKerracher
www.mckerracher.org

In message <_ivAb.1140$ms7.26881055@news-text.cableinet.net>, Phil
McKerracher <phil@mckerracher.org> writes

This is my question. If they haven't removed the DACS, tested and put it
back on, how can they tell me that the line test has failed??

Would they do this? Or is telling me its failed it just an easy option
to stop them taking me off the DACS

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nospam and all that stuff.
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__________________________________________________

"Gareth Jones" <usenet@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:B6MdZonhly0$EwnM@nospam.demon.co.uk...
Maybe there are too many other customers in your bundle using ADSL already.
It's unlikely that a line short enough to work with DACS would fail an ADSL
length test, but crosstalk is a likely problem in a heavily used bundle.

They're not supposed to do this, but I guess it's possible.

--
Phil McKerracher
www.mckerracher.org

In message <E1_Ab.56$_T7.2628779@news-text.cableinet.net>, Phil
McKerracher <phil@mckerracher.org> writes
Our exchange only got upgraded last Week. I put my order in a month
before hand and was hoping to be one of the first :-(


So does DACS have a line length limitation as well? Anyone know what
this typically is??
This is good news if what you say is true, although I can't say I've
seen it mentioned anywhere else though.

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Phil McKerracher wrote:
In reality it's often the other way around (at least in the midlands
anyway), with the network being uplifted & the DACS removed only for
the lines to fail on the final line test

Gareth Jones wrote:


Yes DACS do have line length limitations but as these are for
different frequencies & are a lot longer than DSL it doesn't compare.

Bite the bullet & be patient it'll get to you

In message <Xi%Ab.2198$Jd7.16626@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net>, Kráftéé
<kraftee@spammerdie.ntlworld.com> writes
In my experience with BT (and most other organisations of that ilk)
being patient and doing nothing just means you sit down and wait.... and
wait ...And wait...... forever :-(

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"Gareth Jones" <usenet@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:G51sJS9CMH1$Ewea@nospam.demon.co.uk...
Sometimes, especially if the ISP is not clued up on the ADSL ordering
process ordering ADSL before the exchange has gone live can cause the order
to be flagged up as rejected - as ADSL was not possible at the time of the
order etc

You may want to try ordering again... though Plusnet are normally quite good
at these things, its always possible it could have slipped through the net..

Regards
Sunil

In message <br22on$28idgl$1@ID-20959.news.uni-berlin.de>, Sunil Sood
<news@soods.freeserve.co.uk> writes
Slipped through the plus net..... I'm hoping this is indeed what's
happened and have asked them to put it through again.
Its just so annoying that I can't find anyone to speak to who knows
exactly what's happened. Its all supposition.

Strange also that nobody has answered my original question of what
exactly do BT do to test the line (I know what they are looking for - I
want to know how and where they do it) and can they do this test with a
DACS on?
Is it that nobody here knows?
Or that the engineers are keeping quiet?
Or that they hang out in other newsgroups?
Or that they are all up a pole, flat out removing DACS systems ;-)

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"Gareth Jones" <usenet@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:O7wOZnAWZK1$Ewvp@nospam.demon.co.uk...
lol - if I say that this thread has so far included one expert on Highway
and one BT engineer would you believe me?

However, to summarise and the below is out of date (i.e. the limit is now
60dB and one or more of the BT systems may have been changed)

-----
When a Service Provider enters an order onto the system it will enter Stage
1 of the line qualification process where the ANTAS system will query the
line length/loss by checking a database of information. believed a greater
than 6.5km line means a red result

If this stage of the process returns a Green the order is progressed, if Red
the order is rejected and if Amber the next stage of the process (FastRAG)
is invoked.

Stage 2 of the process uses the FastRAG system to perform an on-demand
robotic line test to check if the Amber ANTAS line result can be determined
to be Green or Red. Again if this stage of the process returns a Green the
order is progressed, if Red the order is rejected and if Amber the next
stage of the process (eRecords) is invoked. Possibly where the capacitance
comes into it

Stage 3 of the process uses the Drawing Office Teams (eRecords) to use
existing databases of measured external plant records to determine the
relevant cable gauge, cable section lengths and cable routing. This is the
55dB limit, which can be estimated from the paper data If the eRecords stage
of the process returns a Green the order is progressed, if Red the order is
rejected and if Amber the next stage of the process, Precision Test Officer
(PTO) is invoked.

Stage 4 of the process uses a specialist BT Engineer (PTO) to visit the
relevant serving exchange for your end customer. The PTO will connect an
Insertion Loss tester to the exchange, and he will then travel to the end
customer's premises to carry out a Woosh test at the NTE. If he cannot gain
access to the premises, he measures at the distribution point, adding the
additional loss of the lead-in. The PTO records the final Green or Red (not
Amber) and passes the result back to the systems for return to Service
Providers. This is the 55dB limit.
------

Regards
Sunil

In message <br2psl$28dkl0$1@ID-20959.news.uni-berlin.de>, Sunil Sood
<news@soods.freeserve.co.uk> writes
I'm saying nothing ;-)



This is useful and gives me some of the sort of info I'm looking for -
thanks.

I've actually just been out shopping and clocked the mileage to the
exchange to check what a BT engineer told me and was spot on - its 3.5
miles - which is around 5.6Km ....... on the edge eh? Bugger! I'd have
liked a bit more margin than that.
Ho hum....

So am I correct in assuming that they could complete up to and including
stage 3 with a DACS in place purely as a paper/database exercise?
But I'm guessing in my position, the chances are that an amber would
show up each time, so they'd have to go to stage 4 - but they'd HAVE to
take the DACS off at that point to do this test?


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__________________________________________________

Gareth Jones wrote:
Not permanently, no....

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:19:29 -0000, "Sunil Sood"
<news@soods.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

It is unfortunate that this method assumes recorded information is
correct - and may explain my rejection. For my line the length figures
were:

1. automated line test (2+ years ago) 4.53Km
2. ADSL database - service not available >5.5Km
3. SDSL database - 256k service => <4Km (but exchange not enabled)
4. "paint" road route 3.5Km (route indicated by paint during cable
cowboy diggery)

There is an alternative road route of 4.5Km using the northern
motorway crossing point (road bridge over) instead of the southern
point (motorway bridge over), but that doesn't follow the paint after
50 metres!

I must try again, as the ADSL database has now changed to < 5.5Km!
Though, with analogue speeds training down from 41k to 30k during most
sessions, I'm not that hopeful.

PeeGee
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The reply address is a spam trap. If you need to reply directly, put the UK where it should be - first.

"PeeGee" <triessuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nsebtv41kgrlbhmh93eoh58m420j4f0bqb@4ax.com...
If you have reason to believe that you line is good enough to support ADSL
(line distance is only a guide, its the dB figure thats important) and that
you are being rejected due to incorrect data stored by BT.. if you fail
again normally, reapply and ask your ISP to submit a "manual order" this
time.

A "manual order" means that BT Wholesale will test your line and not rely on
its paper records.

Regards
Sunil

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:27:08 -0000, "Sunil Sood"
<news@soods.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:



PeeGee
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