A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection problems ever since
she got broadband about 6 months ago (though I only learned of this a week
ago) and the symptoms have got much more frequent over the past couple of
weeks.

Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.

The router is a BT Voyager 210.

Symptoms are either:

1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon) goes out.
This is the more frequent symptom.

or

2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens less
frequently.


Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then there is a flurry
of problems with failures maybe every 10 minutes or so, followed by another
long fault-free period.

Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently lose its logon
and need to be manually connected again, either by rebooting the router or
else by going into the router's config page and pressing the Connect button?

I have put the router in the master test socket with all other
wiring/equipment disconnected. I have replaced the RJ11-RJ11 cable and
microfilter with an RJ11-BT cable to elimiminate the effect of faults in the
cable or filter.

I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream attenuation of
about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and upstream lower attenuation /
higher margin. The results for the router in the master test socket are only
about 2 dB better than those with the router in the normal house wiring with
everythign connected, which suggests that wiring/equipment is not the cause.

Despite these good figures, the router can be seen to lose sync at random -
the stats then disappear.

I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this reported the same
stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't able to check the loss of ADSL
logon connection when there was a good DSL carrier because this router was
locked to work only with BT lines - I've since learned how to re-flash it to
remove that restriction!


Does all of this point to a line fault between the master socket and the
exchange? It may be significant that when I was doing all my testing, there
was constant heavy rain which could cause water in cable joins on poles or
in underground ducts.


I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded apart from
acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the correct department.

"Mortimer" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:utydnYrRIfPBP9rVnZ2dnUVZ8qqlnZ2d@plusnet...
[snip details]


Have you tried a different make of router? (A reputable brand such as
Vigor)

Get the router to report to a local syslog so you can see exactly when the
failures occur and their nature.

Who is the ISP ?? If they don't respond to you within a few hours with a
sensible proposal for resolving the problem I suggest a change to a more
technically competent ISP is your first priority.

--
Graham J

Mortimer wrote:
It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to find if there isn't
any other diagnostics. Had one today, in the end I had to swap a pair as
there were no fault conditions other than this intermitent noise (& before
anybody says, no I didn't give it a blast with my Mega as it's been taken
away from me so I have to use the infamous Hawk, looks like a ladies hand
bag stuffed with bricks & is twice as useless, most of the time).

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:08:09 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just like the
old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the training and threw the
booklet in the back of your van ;-)

Klunk wrote:
Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk training for over 2
years & the no training was provided by 2 work shy coaches looking for a
couple of days out of the field.. As for coupling it to my PC via Bluetooth
or serial port I figured it out on my own but don't see a use for it until
they actually start to record the test readings, like never as with the
Harrier..

kraftee wrote:

today's Health and Safety.
The old original 'Meggers' with big handles were really good! I only
managed to leave work with smaller version.

The GPO safely madness even went as far as being the ecuse for not
renting unequipped fibres (like they used to do with coaxes) cos someone
said that there was adanger of looking down a 'lit' fibre it it was
provisioned by a third party.

Have to say anyone looking down a fibre is stupid anyway - although the
laser pointers are a very good quick way to see if a fibre is continuous.
We used them often on TV Outside Broadcasts to check the temporary .

Mikefibres

m wrote:
Don't tell him it's nearer 150V as he will then have to make up something
else to grumble about.

But it is typical & is still going on, we've got new starters who have got
no idea what or how to test using equipment supposedly costing thousands of
pounds. 'Der Management' appear to have the believe that if you spend lots
of money on new equipment & nothing on training things are going to improve.
For me the most prominent one is the lack of DSL training now given to
supposed DSL trained engineers. When I was trained (& it was one of the few
you had to pass & yes some did fail) it was a residential 2 week course & it
still didn't cover all the areas required, nowadays it's 2 days in the local
'skill centre' being taught by someone who just wants an easy couple of days
& then they are sent out with the simple instruction if the green LED is on
everything is ok. I do really wish it was that simple.....

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:29:29 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

It is not part of the advanced course. It is a basic feature of the unit.
Normally it tests at 95v but pressing the button next to that figure
cycles it through 95, 500, -500, -95. On later software they may have
removed it but it still exists in the 'bridge' mode enabling a nice blast
of 500v to be applied.

For intermittent noisy faults I bought a cheap Tempo Sidekick off of
eBay. The stress test was very useful and why BT have nothing like it I
don't know. It applies a 1khz tone across the pair at 140v and you can
watch the HR jump about on the meter. I picked it up for £30 (but I've
seen them go for a £1) and it gave me enough of an edge to spend more
valuable time drinking tea ;-)

Klunk wrote:
Well that's where we differ, later software on mine which clearly states
95V, most probably HS have been involved

So clearly you are one of the group you were slandering in previous post,
the one where you called field engineers lazy & drink tea all day. I
suppose it's ok if you have a box van (that makes you second stage then) but
all the end user facing engineers in this overall area have to put up with
panel vans where you don't have room to drinl tea let alone make it. before
you ask it, no the electric kettle (like a lot of other bits of kit) isn't
fit for puirpose.

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:10:05 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

There you go jumping the gun and making wild assumptions again, in all
the years you have been posting here you've not gotten over doing that.

To answer your points before you disappear up your own arse:
1) I slandered nobody. I told the truth.
2) Yes, I had plenty of days drinking tea and dodging work. I also had
plenty of days doing work other people were dodging or f**king up.
3) I've always gone that 'extra mile'. Buying your own test kit to
resolve multiple repeat reports and basic things like actually knowing
how to use the kit you have tends to be helpful.
4) Customer facing always. Always apologising for lazy, overpaid, thick
engineers who spent the day cutting and running.
4) I don't recall ever driving a box van. They were for the extremely
lazy twats (PPO's, PTO's etc.)
5) All electric kettles are fit for their purpose and PAT tested.

I've covered your points, keep digging - anything else?

Klunk wrote:
Der you don't PAT test the electric kettles which are supposed to be on your
panel van, as for buying kit to get problems resolved, been there done it
then informally told to remove them as they have not been tested for HS
reasons (how else could I use the old black Alcatel routers to test in PCPs
or joints for that matterwithout a 12v transverter ). the only pieces of
extra kit I've been allowed to keep is an old B&D 9v drill/screwdriver which
is very useful to use in confined spaces, oh & a couple of extra
screwdrivers, everything else has had to go (including the knife which I
bought after der management said that engineers wern't responcable to carry
one & so took them away from us)

I'm not the person digging holes, unless it's looking for buried joints or
JB23s for that matter....

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:43:06 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

Yes you do. Anything on board that operates at 240v must be on the assets
list and pat tested. You should have a tester visit you every six months.
That is kettles, chargers, drills, extensions leads, WITHOD kits etc. If
it had been a stove top kettle I could understand your 'Derrr' line, but
as it is an electric like you have said there is no ambiguity.

It depends if you run around trying to show everyone and act smart
drawing attention to yourself, or if you shut your gob and just get on
with the job. As for H&S, if they are tested and approved to work on the
US & EU PSTN network, I am satisfied with that myself. Perhaps you are
special?

A Laptop and Voyager 105 is the norm (as it mostly still is with the
current tools app). Before those we had a Presto Tester that we shared
around if we needed to test where we could not plug an Efficient Networks
router in.

I would track those out myself thanks. I'm not the one trying to pass
myself off as anything here as I am ex-bt and don't give a shit. Like I
said, you done yet or do you want to carry on for the last word and make
any more dumb statements?

kraftee passed an empty day by writing:

I've just two of my ex-bt mates on the phone. They both have the latest
software on the Hawk and both can change the 95v, -95v, 500v & -500v on
insulation and bridge modes. Looks like you must be really special and
the only guy on BT to not have that feature. Can you check and see if you
have a dim nut in contact with the keypad?

Klunk wrote:
PAT test 12volt items, you most definitely don't know what the hell you are
talking about, they've even removed the transvertors that were on some of
the vans as they couldn't be PAT tested.

Like most of your noise you are correct only so far & then you make great
leaps into the unknown second guessing yourself & then wondering why a chasm
opens under your feet

here again you are only partially correct, firstly the Presto tester
(uselesss as they may be have been) has never been rolled out into the
'field'. Secondly the only way you could test a DSL circuit for the first 5
years or so was with a Router, it was only later that they actually thought
about the fact that the field engineer required a way to test away from a
240v supply, it was around that time that the edict came down that the
transvertors had to be removed as they weren't standard items & couldn't be
tested. One big problem now is that the only way to test some SDSL
circuits is with a 240v router (& so the cycle goes on) the ones which can't
be tested with the SDSL router supplied can't be tested at all, other than
testing loop loss & checking all connections.
I'll leave the dumb & sweeping statements to the enbittered ex BT engineers
who have lost contact with what the realities of what is really going on in
the field.

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:40:41 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

As you persist in going on for the last word, let's look at you latest
outburst:

"PAT test 12volt items, you most definitely don't know what the hell you
are talking about."

You said 'Electric' you did NOT say 12v. If this is the best you can do
fella then you have my pity. I always carried a 240v kettle and inverter
myself - but as the company don't issue those, I guess you went without.

"Like most of your noise you are correct only so far & then you make
great leaps into the unknown second guessing yourself & then wondering
why a chasm opens under your feet"

And you're full of hot air and shit, the statement above illustrates the
point.

"here again you are only partially correct, firstly the Presto tester
(uselesss as they may be have been) has never been rolled out into the
'field'."

Our ADSL manager was able to get hold of one which we shared. Again, you
are - how do I put this - you are making "great leaps into the unknown
second guessing yourself"

"Secondly the only way you could test a DSL circuit for the first 5
years or so was with a Router"

Rubbish.

"I'll leave the dumb & sweeping statements to the enbittered ex BT
engineers who have lost contact with what the realities of what is really
going on in the field."

You've already made yourself look a twat dude. You don't know how to use
your test kit. You tell people to look at the instructions, but it turns
out that you are wrong. You can wriggle and abuse all you like - but the
facts speak for themselves.

Are you done, or do you want to carry on for the last word? Perhaps you
can enrol one of your mates (or other socks) and turn this into your
usual double act?

If you spent more time working out how to do your job, and less time
thinking you knew how to do it you may well promote yourself to 'shit
engineer' from 'sick lame and lazy'. (Yes - I know who you are)

Klunk wrote:
So you are postulating that 12v is not electric, well it it isn't what is
it...

you did NOT say 12v. If this is the best you
Nope went out & bought a invertor only to be told that I must not carry one
in the vandue to HS issues
If you don't think 12v is electricity I think you've opened up yet another
hole underneath yours..
So a Ping test proves that a circuit is fully finctional do you, how can you
find out what the line losses are & SNR by using an outdated (yes it was
outdated before we even got them delivered) large clumsy instrument like a
Presto tester, which belong to BT Business anyway
Oh no it's not not if you were doing it the specified way. It's a shame
that I've got a CF29 or else I'd be able to tell you the software package as
well, but you are so firmly entrenched in your own ideals it wouldn't make a
jot of difference.

Lets see, 12v is not electricity, using a ping test to prove fully
functionality, admiting that you were one of those you were stating that
were lazy, sitting in the back of your van all daydrinking tea, need I go
on.


You can wriggle and abuse all
They certainly do & Openreach is better off without the likes of you..
Oh no you don't but never mind, but I'll leave you to your dreams....

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:18:37 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

When you've learnt to use your kit come back and talk to the
professionals you thick, lazy old c*nt.

"Klunk" <bill.gates@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:484be331$0$2483$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
What an erudite, well-reasoned and polite comment!
Let's see more of that type of post here, please - I love to be entertained
by such articulate wit!

;-)

George

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:11:22 +0100, George Weston passed an empty day by
writing:

Then you need to get out more. Is this the start of the George & Mildred
show then?

George Weston wrote:
Never mind he will get tired of providing dis information & personal attacks
soon as thry all do, I've hasd similar attacks in the past & will do in the
future, it's all part of 'sticking your head above the parapet'