different socket from the US, and UK uses the third standard. You laptop
charger I presume can use 110 V and 220 V electricity.

Goran

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:53:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
<ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:

It's not safe to do that though. UK receptacles are protected at 30A
or so, so there is quite a bit of current there. You NEED an adaptor
that has a fuse in it.

Gary Tait <taitg@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
Plugs? they're either 2A or 3A or 5A. A special power circuit socket
might be 13A.

And it's perfectly safe to do that. THINK! How many pins does a
continental plug have? Two. So how many of the pins are connected?
Two. Do I have to go on or are you going to continue to parrot
nonthinking speciousnesses ...

Uh, if you had a charger without a fuse in, that would be a miracle.
Ditto laptop. Besides, having a fuse in is not directly related to
having an earth! You will find the fuse is inline with the current
input, not the earth.

Peter

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:44:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
<ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:

Plugs, yes, that is why they have the fuse in them. The outlets
themselves are protected by a 30A fuse or MCB.

Two (plus earth), but are protected by either 10 or 16A protection,
perfectly safe for the linecord and protected equipment.

On UK plugs, you will find a fuse in the plug.
The fuse doesn't protect only the equipment, but the linecord too, if
the equipment doesn't have its own fuse.

You tell me what is going to protect an 18 AWG (or its metric
equivalent), from a 30A supply.

I suggest you read a few threads in the forum below. I'll even copy
this discussion there, whether you want to or not, just to show your
ignorance of UK electrical safety.
<http://electrical-contractor.net/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Non-US+Electrical+Systems+|AMP|+Trades&number=9&DaysPr une=1000&LastLogin=>

Gary Tait <taitg@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
The wall sockets (outlets) are not usually fused either in britain or on
the continent, but the whole circuit definitely is always fused at the
fuse box.

It will be fused at the same amperage as the plugs to be used in the
sockets attached to that ring. That is, 5A for a 5A circuit, for which
you will be using plugs fused at 5A - if you haven't decided instead to
fuse the plug at a level of the appliance it's connected to! Which may
be variously less or more than 5A. If more, then you could blow the
circuit fuse.

A continental plug is generally not fused. I haven't ever seen one
except in the "never sold" section of market stalls (there's the big
market outside my house every sunday). British plugs generally are
fused. I'm looking at the continental plug on a computer power cable
now, and it says 10-16A, 250V, and it's not fused. Amazingly, it does
have an earth wire, but no earth pin. Instead there is a metal
baseplate with a hole in to which the earth wire is attached. The hole
takes a pin from the socket. There are very very few sockets with earth
pins in - looking at my (continental) wall I see that the red emergency
circuit from the building UPS has one socket with such a pin, the rest
are without it. That's 6 sockets I looked at.

Yes.

Well, whatever.

Pass. Me no parse. What's an AWG? Are you talking about an equipment
that can take only 18A being plugged into a circuit fused at 30A? Its
own fuses should save it. If it's not fused and it takes 18A normally,
complain to somebody.

Peter

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:39:38 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer" <ptb@it.uc3m.es>
wrote:

They are, not locally at the socket, but at the consumer unit.

That is where you are not getting it. UK outlets, are protected at the
consumer unit at 30A, to protect the wiring in the wall, the plug on
the appliance is fused to protect its linecord, and maybe the
appliance. If you manage plug linecord from the continent into a UK
outlet, it is essentially not being protected at all, by anything that
will save it.


Not genrally, they are, no matter what, unless it is an illegal
device, or something you plug into a shaver outlet.

The hole is for French/Belgian outlets, where a ground pin is part of
the outlet. Shucko outlets (in germany an other places), have a
pressure contact that mates with that metal on the side.

It is ne way we discuss wire size in North America.

I am talking about a linecord capable of carrying only 7-10A of
current being protected by a 30A fuse or MCB. What fuses may or may
not be in the equipment is irrelavent, it is the linecord's safety in
question.

Gary Tait <taitg@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
Uh .... are you saying what I am saying, but calling "at the fuse box",
"at the consumer unit"? Is that some sort of orwellian speak? What's
the circumlocution for? I kind of object to the replacement of plain
speech by jargon.

If by "consumer unit", you mean "fuse box", I assure you they're fused
at the ampage appropriate to the circuit, and while I haven't see the
wiring of many UK houses, I have seen the wiring of the few I have seen
for many many years. I.e. each individual circuit will have either a
3A or 5A or 13A fuse in, at the fusebox.

I won't go to the fusebox on my continental wall, but I recall that it
contains at least 4 rows of 8 trigger throw switches, triggered at
ampages appropriate to the circuits. In addition, there is a single
throw switch on the incoming line, triggered at the current level I
have contracted for overall.

In the UK, instead of trigger switches, there are fuses in the fusebox,
but then the houses are generally much older. I haven't lived in a
house in the UK less than a hundred years old.

What the heck is a "linecord"? Do you mean the power cord? Why would
anybody care about it? Appliances are fused to protect themselves from
meltdown. And the house too, in the unlikely event that some other
fuse doesn't blow.

Uh, what? Why should anyone care about a power cord? The appliance
will be fused, and if it's not, then somebody has a problem if the
appliance develops a short, but the power cord is the last thing in the
world anyone will worry about, particularly as it can either take
umpteen amps or not, and in case of not, it'll melt and act like a fuse
itself. If it can, it'll be perfectly happy, and the circuit fuse will
blow instead.


?? Oh, you mean british plugs are always fused. Yes, I would agree that
coincides with my experience. But I don't know if that is the absolute
rule.

I see. Looking at some more sockets here, there are some with metal
leaf springs in the side wall that make contact with the metal
baseplate where it is exposed in the side of the plug too. But from
experience either the cords or the socket wiring will inevitably be
without the earth wire, and most sockets don't have the leaf spring
arrangement. In particular, extension cords leading to expansion
umm socket-arrays don't.

Oh, yes, I see.

If the power cord blows, it blows. But that won't happen because it
will be on a circuit that is fused at well below 7-10A. Only a few
circuits are fused at 13A, which is the only standard that is above
that.

I suppose you are going to tell me that the line blowing is a fire
hazard? (in my experience it simply goes bang inside the sheath
somewhere, and then is sheepishly safe).


Peter

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 23:24:56 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
<ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:

Yes, Consumer Unit = Fusebox

But, you see, General purpose outlet circuits in the UK are protected
at 25-30A.

On the continent, they do use radial circuits, as you describe, often
protected at 10 or 16A. But in the UK, they use ring circuits, which
are protected at 25-30A.

They use trigger switches there too now, called MCBs.

Because they don't want them to catch fire.
There is no way the fuse in an appliance protects linecord or
outlet wiring from a fault in the line cord.

It works like this, the fuse in the appliance protects the appliance.
The fuse in the plug protects the linecord. The fuse or MCB in the CU
protects the wiring.

It may not, it could catch fire, or worse, catch something else on
fire. It is better to have the weak spot that will fail in case of
fault, in a cotrolled enviroment, for instance, THE FUSE IN THE PLUG.

It is the rule, not by practice, but by laws set out by the electrical
safety authority.

Not in the UK though, as I keep saying, they are protected at 25-30A.

And a fuse blowing is what kind of hazard? Not to mention the cost of
replacing a linecord vs the cost of replacing a fuse vs the cost of
replacing a whole building (which you'd be liable for, should you
stupid acts cause such a tragedy to occur).

"Peter T. Breuer" <ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message news:<83akfb.v4c.ln@news.it.uc3m.es>...
You are wrong, Gary Tait is right. The British sockets are on a 30 or
32 Amp ring circuit, typically with 2.5 mm2 conductors.

Should you not believe me, I would advise you too look up a suitable
reference. You may start with

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.3.1.htm

If that does not convince you, you may look in the On Site Guide to
the British wiring regs, BS 7671.

/Clas-Henrik

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:04:34 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
<ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:

Used to, yes (using BS546 plugs), but now, as that site shows, 32 A
ring mains are the norm, and have been for more than 50 years.

Gary Tait <taitg@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
Only in new houses, and I have never even lived in a house newer than
100 years old in the UK. Ring circuits have always been the norm, by
the way. Yes, old houses will have new sockets on them, but the basic
wiring structure behind that will be as it always has been (even if
rewired in parts!). I've seen enough of them during my life in the UK.

Peter

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:40:27 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
<ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:

New houses, being late 1940s or newer, or wiring installations since
then. Sure, there MAY be old wiring as you describe, but that would be
the exception, not the norm, as you seem to think it is.

And commercial and institutional installations surely will be up to
IEE regs, so there is no chance of a hotel having old wiring.