It's interesting that Apple is touting the 10.3 Version of OSX Server...

As... "Open Source Made Easy"

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/

How true, how true...

More info here:

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/specs.html

http://www.apple.com/server/resources/

Oxford

-

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:25:33 -0600, Oxford wrote:

Seems appropriate to me. The services they are touting are the same that
OSS has provided (Samba, Apache, OpenLDAP, CUPS, NFS, NIS, MySQL BSD and
so on). Apple adds integration, nice looking hardware, a nice interface
to the mix. Apple also adds what looks like a nice looking AND functional
administrative interface for all those services.

The comprehensive and functional administrative interface is where I think
Apple can really differentiate itself from the other solutions that
provide the same services (the BSDs, Linuxes, and proprietary Unixes). If
they get that right... really right then they stand a chance of really
moving into the server space.

-DU-...etc...

Oxford wrote:

I searched Apple's web site relentlessly to find the source code to the
"Server Admin" tool so highly touted as "open source" but never found
it. Please provide us with a link to the "open source" source code.

Thanks
--
Bill

As Oxford so eloquently gibbered on Sat, 11 Oct 2003 at 03:25 GMT:

Wow! For $1,000 I can have unlimited clients connecting to my server?
(It only costs me $500 to /have/ server software from the same source!)
Well, I'd imagine I could't do something like that with any reliability
on a little ol' iMac. So what is the hardware to allow unlimited
clients going to run? $1500? $2500?

Wait......I can do that already, plus all of the other stuff they
mention, plus quite a few other things! How is this possible on a PC I
built myself for under $500 and a free download?

I don't dislike Mac. My wife has one. I want one. But I'm not going to
be fooled by a bunch of marketing pap. MICROS~1 is much better at using
the language of feeeeeeeeeechure-push, and they can't trick me either.

--
"Ironically, Microsoft's efforts to deny interoperability of Windows with
legitimate non-Microsoft applications have created an environment in which
Microsoft's program interoperate efficiently only with Internet viruses."
- Dan Geer.

In article <slrnbofj0n.ica.sinister@home.harry.net>, Sinister Midget
<sinister@kcsmart.spamMEnot.rog> wrote:

As if it's not obvious enough, you are not their target market.

BTW, how much tech support you get with your $500 bargain PC? That,
btw, is a huge selling point for many of Apple's target market.

Blah blah blah... like you're really going to listen.

As zurg so eloquently gibbered on Sat, 11 Oct 2003 at 10:08 GMT:

Hmmmm, I don't need much tech support. I built it, I installed the
software, I learned it.

My wife has sure needed all of the tech support. She's contacted them
about.....let's see......I think it......no, that was something....it
was......I know: exactly never! She got almost everything she needed
from a book I bought her for around $40.

I just think it's overpriced, which is one of the keys to why the
market level is still so small despite having a head start and being a
better system than $CRAPWARE always has been.

I know I'm not their target. But I'd think they'd like to make a little
more money on the deal. They could do that if they lowered costs and
prices, directly widening their target market a little more.

Sure, they cut prices already. It's /still/ too high for most people
though.

I'll still buy one for myself eventually. But they won't have any
benefit from it because I'll buy it used or get one of the clones I see
sold on Ebay. Even the software will be last generation instead of
latest.

They /could/ have me and a lot of others in their market if they'd only
cut the prices a little and/or weren't so anal about licensing others
to make clones.

--
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.

Bill Gutz wrote:

Buy the software, and you get the source code (or at least you have a
legal claim to it). Just having it be open source doesn't force them to
give it to you for free ...

--
PeKaJe

Carmel, New York, has an ordinance forbidding men to wear coats and
trousers that don't match.

zurg wrote:
And how many ISPs use Linux/Apache on the cheaper PCs??
Quite a few. Who gives support to the ISPs?? They hire
people with brains.

In article <3F883646.959E6F78@mist.com>, GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>
wrote:

And hiring people with brains is free? It's not cheap to hire someone
and have them on-call 24/7. Thus, the $500 PC scenario is not cheap for
smaller businesseses that need that kind of power but can't afford to
hire someone to maintain it.

As I said, for the target market, this is a good deal.

In article <slrnbofn6n.p4t.sinister@home.harry.net>, Sinister Midget
<sinister@kcsmart.spamMEnot.rog> wrote:

A lot of people running smaller businesses have no time to futz around
with that.

You and your wife are not the target market. Citing examples from your
and her personal experiences is supposed to prove what exactly?

In article Sinister Midget <sinister@kcsmart.spamMEnot.rog> wrote:

well if you don't value your time... you have a point... but $999 is
exceedinly cheap compared to the alternatives... linux has never been
free if you think to include the time learning/maintaining it... OSX
server gets rid of the learning/maintaining portion... again, a good
deal if you place "value" on your time...

any 233Mhz imac can handle this software... and those go for what? $200?
if your that cheap, just order the full version for $499 through the
education side of apple... http://www.apple.com/education/store

osx server is where things are heading... the days of "tinker toy" oses
like linux, no longer make much sense... "IF YOU VALUE YOUR TIME" and I
agree a lot of people in this world don't...

Oxford

-

Oxford wrote:

Fine. Now go to any MS group and tell them your nonsense, since they spout
the same crap. You will have a lot of fun with those morons.
--
Who the fuck is General Failure, and why is he reading my harddisk?

In article Bill Gutz <billgutz@billgutz.com> wrote:

ah, why in the world would you go looking for the admin portion as "open
source"? ... didn't you read the heading? "Open Source Made Easy"... the
made easy part was difficult to build, that's why apple gets a few bucks
for doing it...

linux will never have this level of "made easy" since it's base is too
fractured and inconsistent to be widely useful... check out more on osx
server... it's where things are headed...

http://www.apple.com/server/documentation/

http://www.apple.com/server/

Oxford

-

zurg wrote:

How much maintence does a diskless workstation booting from a file
server need. These diskless stations can be had for as little as
$200.00. Any problems and you just plug a new one in and boot a fresh
image. The're probabily not worth fixing at that price.
Any necessary server maintence can be done remotely through a Secure
Shell connection. There by cutting out the need for a permanent techie
on duty.
-

From: Daeron <daeron@demon.net>
Subject: Linare Linux based PCs from $199, zwire.com
Message-ID: <bm767b$iec5t$1@ID-168140.news.uni-berlin.de>

New Linux-based PC available from Linare
anon Oct 10, 2003

Linare Corp, an integrator of software and hardware focused on the Linux
platform, has introduced a new PC priced at USD199.95.

The Linare PC uses a 1.3 GHz AMD processor and includes 128 MB of RAM,
30 GB of hard drive space and an Ethernet interface, together with
Linare Linux. The PC is also supplied with a keyboard, mouse and speaker.
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n... 226964&rfi=6
---

There was a whole City in the US that standardised on Linux saving big
bucks. It was covered here on COLA. The name escapes me for the moment.
There is an in dept web article on it.

ps: why are you cross posting to .mac.advocacy ?

As zurg so eloquently gibbered on Sat, 11 Oct 2003 at 19:49 GMT:

Nothing. Nor did I say it was supposed to prove anything.

That said, there are more than ample numbers of people that /do/ fall
into a similar category. Not everybody wants to mortgage the house and
put the kids to work to own a few computers. Some are willing to put a
little effort into things.

The same with businesses. Why buy a farm of expensive machines that are
still going to need someone for maintenance and upkeep when cheaper
machines can be had with enough left over to handle the costs of
technical support? Add to the mix that many of the huge advantages Mac
used to have over the PC aren't so huge any more. Yes, they're still
better built and integrated. But when the price of purchase and
addtional costs for keeping it all going get added in, the additional
gain of a Mac quickly becomes no gain at all, or too small of a gain to
justify the effort.

Evidently you can't field the part about overpricing and small market
share, seeing as you snipped it and dropped it altogether. Let me know
if you'd like to see it again.

--
SirCam - Innovative Microsoft peer-to-peer software at its finest!

Oxford wrote:
No it does not, you still have to learn to use it. Just like any
software you aren't used to. Especially if you are switching from
something else.

I'm sorry, but what self respecting business wants to run it's server
off something that looks like a turd that Fisher Price shat out. The
iMac is for iYuppies and little girls who want a pretty computer.

Pfft.

Tell that to all the major companies switching to Linux. They like Linux
just fine.

If you value an Open Source OS under the control of no single source,
with therefore no chance at monopoly control and abuse, you choose
Linux. And if you value your time you also value Linux....because once a
Linux system gets running it's damn stable.

Just like the Mac, it beats Mafiasoft stability all to hell. That means
less time spent on tech support. That makes sense, and cents.

And Linux beats Mac on price, even if you run on lower end Mac hardware
like the iCrap....because there are no expensive license charges with
GPLd software.


And as for usability of the GUI....you guys aren't going to still claim
you're all that superior are you? I mean, we do use the same basic GUI
system, X11. And we had that before you did. You guys just use a
different wm system with it. BTW, can you change the wm on a Mac? I
don't think you can, but I'm not sure. You can in Linux, which adds
flexability.


--
"Sure, the lion is king of the jungle - but airdrop him into Antarctica,
and he's just a penguin's bitch." -- Dennis Miller

As Oxford so eloquently gibbered on Sat, 11 Oct 2003 at 20:00 GMT:

Learning was a pleasure, not a chore. Cost: $0.00

Maintaining is no different than anything else I've used except
Winders. Comparing to WinDoze I save an awful lot of time. But we're
comparing to Mac. Cost: $0.00

Maintenance. This will depend on use, so in both instances it would be
questionable until it's defined. I know on Linux my maintenance time is
minimal. I'm guessing it would be similar with Mac. This is the
discussion of server use only. Let's say $0.00.

I won't even calculate hardware maintenance. Mac is already at a
disadvantage because I can buy low-priced PCs that run fairly well. I
could also get low-end Macs, but the price differential is still
2-to-1. Maintaining the machines would be approximately a wash: PCs
break more, Mac parts are more expensive to acquire.

Paying $999 for Mac server software. Cost $999.00

Learning the Mac side of maintanence, probably a pleasure, though I
can't say for sure. So I'll err on the side of caution. Cost: $0.00

Let's see what we have:

MAC LINUX

Learning $ 0.00 0.00
Software 999.00 0.00
Maintenance 0.00 0.00
------- -------
TOTAL $999.00 0.00

Which number would you say is bigger?

Using a 233MHz iMac would be as painful as using a P233. You mentioned
a business environment. How many are going to settle for 233MHz in you
scenario?

Why would I need to be cheap? I thought this was a cost comparison for
a small business (a situation you proclaimed above). That would seem to
call for desiding cost-effectiveness, not someone's personal spending
habits.

I like Macs. But I would never, ever, ever make that sort of claim! Are
they providing cocaine with new machines or something?

They've been a small niche for around 20 years. The numbers have been
nearly stagnant for around 10 of those. Where's this sudden demand
you're claiming? I sure haven't even /seen/ such claims, much less any
that could be considered somewhat credible!

--
Support organized crime: Buy Microsoft products.

Oxford wrote:
Plus the fact that Open Source doesn't mean you can get the source off
the web. It means if you buy the software you can get the source for no
additional cost.

That is simply not true.


--
"Sure, the lion is king of the jungle - but airdrop him into Antarctica,
and he's just a penguin's bitch." -- Dennis Miller

Liam Slider wrote:
<snip>
Nevermind, got this answered.


--
"Sure, the lion is king of the jungle - but airdrop him into Antarctica,
and he's just a penguin's bitch." -- Dennis Miller

In article <bm9p8v$jvtih$1@ID-169482.news.uni-berlin.de>,
Liam Slider <liam@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:

And there's no reason that it should be any easier to learn, right?

Sorry for you, maybe. What practical business *cares* what its server
*looks* like.


Wow. Just like Mac OS X.

I thought you just said that Linux gave you something in stability you
didn't get from Mac OS X.


And you spend more time adminstering it because you don't get the
*tools* those license charges pay for....

Only if by "the same" you mean "completely different".

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."