Timothy Daniels wrote:
In single unit residential property, no, they can't. Not without your
permission. Once it's installed in the home, it ceases to be personal
property, and becomes a part of the real property. You own the real
property. They do not have an easement or any other kind of lein on the
cabling that has become a part of your real property.

This does not apply to commercial or some multi-unit residential
properties, including common areas in condos, co-ops, or HOA's.


You have the right to refuse them access. You have the right to refuse
to allow any changes. They have the right to disconnect you from their
network. They cannot unilatterally make changes to cabling that has
become a part of your real property. You must grant them permission to
do so. The only place they can demand access to is any cable running in
their easment, which typically is on their side of the tap. Even your
drop typically runs outside their easement, and is part of your real
property.


You're talking about commercial or multi-unit residential which is an
entirely different animal than single unit residential. The cable
company has no right to demand access to any part of your property
except for the utility easement properly recorded in the county records.
They cannot demand access to someone's home. They can, however,
disconnect you from their network. That act could only be done within
their easement, for example at the tap, not at the house end of the
drop.

The situation is different for commercial and multi-unit residential,
including common areas of condos, co-ops, and HOA's.

Homeowners, sitting in their single family homes, do not have to worry
about a cable company ever asking for the installed cable back. They
don't have to allow cable company employees access. The only recourse
the cable company has is they can disconnect the home owner from their
network. After that happens, the home owner is free to repurpose that
cable for use with a satellite TV system, or a different cable company's
system, or whatever they want to use it for. The cable company cannot
remove it. They cannot demand it's removal. And once it's disconnected
from their network, they cannot dictate it's use.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.

Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker

On Apr 21, 9:44 am, demie...@yahoo.com wrote:
Wow. Opened up a can of worms with this one...

The cable company (and the phone company), is responsible for
connecting your house to the distribution system. There is a clearly
defined demarcation point where the company's responsibility ends and
the customer's responsibility begins (this is also true to a point in
electrical systems, although most power companies make the home
electrician run all the drop cable). In the case of cable tv, the
demarc is usually the ground block. However, most cable companies use
an interface box (sometimes called a SDU or NIU) as the demarc. Where
I used to work, there was a court case that decided the demarc was 1
ft outside the SDU or the ground block, if no SDU was installed.
However, this was for a very specific reason I don't really want to
get into right now, and was hardly precedent setting.

That being said, there is a constant struggle between the "customer
friendly" factions and the "stick to the rules" factions in most cable
companies. The technician is to do whatever is necessary to get the
customer up and running, unless the problem is wiring that "can't be
replaced" by the tech, at which time he is to inform the customer that
the problem is inside there house and they should contact an
electrician to replace the bad wire. However, this almost never
happens, since the electrician will want big bucks, or in the case of
a builder, will get into a pissing contest with the cable company
about his crappy cable being "just fine" and that technician is "full
of shit*" and handing the customer a "big bill" for "wasting their
time." This causes a trip to the office, equipment in hand, and a lot
of bad feelings. If a supervisor is available, they have a little chat
with the customer, roll another truck, and most likely the next tech
will run another line, or do a better job of documenting the problems
with the bad line. Trust me, it is almost always better to just run a
new cable if there's any way to make it happen. That way the customer
is at least able to get service, and they can deal with the builder
without having to get us involved.

So, if you haven't been discouraged by all the scary stuff in this
thread, go for it. I've thought of doing custom low voltage stuff for
years, but never had the stones to strike out on my own. Besides, I
like being able to play with all the big toys (and get free cable).

As far as the yacht, I would think as long as you followed NEC
guidelines for grounding shore power, it shouldn't be a big deal
(although cable only comes in 1000 ft rolls... sorry. I couldn't help
it).

Eric

Eric

*technical term

On Apr 21, 11:04 am, "Whomever" <alter...@nospam.com> wrote:
many systems don't wall fish, or install outlets in apartments/condos,
and in some cases rentals. Same is true for the phone company. It is
just that an electrician or low voltage contractor may do a better
job, since they are only charging for the installation of the cable,
not the service activation (you'll also pay much more for the
electrician). Can't get cable without an active outlet!

On Apr 22, 1:03 pm, "Warren H" <whol...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Inside wiring is put there because it is necessary. The customer pays
for it at the time of installation. They may have only paid .99 for
it, but they did pay something. Physical cable is a capital expense
for the cable company.

The only thing you may not be right on is the drop, but it depends on
where the franchise (or some legal document) determines the demarc is.
As I understand it, most of them say it is at the ground block, since
that follows generally accepted practices with other utilities (power
company at the meter base, phone company at the NIU). If you want to
use the cable company drop for connection to a satellite dish, for
example, that is not allowed, but if you disconnect the drop from the
ground block and attach a line to a dish, that is OK.

Of course, if you're steaming mad at the cable company, we'll be happy
to remove the drop from your house. Just understand that pant sticks
to plastic jacket material better than wood!

"Warren H" wrote:

Regarding the difference between cable installed in a single unit and
a multi-unit building, I had a conversation with one of our owners
who is a licensed Real Estate Attorney in the State of California,
specialising in home owner association law. She works in the lien
division of a well-known HOA law firm in Los Angeles. She said
that she knows of no distinction in the law between cabling installed
in the walls of a single family residence and in the common area
(i.e. in the walls) of an MDU building, and she asked rhtorically,
"Why should there be?" Like an attorney, she did not deny what you
stated, but merely that she does not, in her legal training and experience,
know it to be true. Perhaps you have had contact with attorneys
more specialized in utility company law, or perhaps you have been
brain-washed by your company's corporate culture. Either way, the
ownership rights of cabling installed by a cable company and the right
to control its usage past the demarcation point is still cloudy.

I suspect that the normal procedure by a cable company installing
the cable itself in an MDU building is to require a contract that
guarantees it sole usage past the demarcation point since much
of the cabling installed would not immediately be used to support
a subscription and thus not result in immediate cash flow (unless
there were a bulk account covering ALL units). In a single family
residence, in contrast, there is a guarantee of an immediate cash
flow that would pay for the cabling job. That would explain why our
cable company was so surprised to find that they had no contract
with us - if they had installed the cabling themselves, there WOULD
have been a contract, and it is such a contract that would make
legally clear what the cable company's rights are. And that is why
they turned around and offered us a discount on a bulk subscription
in return for an exclusive usage contract - they knew satellite TV
was coming.

*TimDaniels*

Timothy Daniels wrote>
I'll give you a slightly different example to help illustrate the
difference.

(First off, there are only two kinds of property: Real property, and
Personal property. So when I speak of personal property, that doesn't
necessarily mean a person owns it. A business could own it. Personal
property is simply anything that isn't real property.)

You own your home. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's
sitting in the kitchen waithing to be installed is personal property.
When it gets installed, it becomes part of the real property. When you
move, you don't get to take the installed cabinet with you because it is
now part of the house.

You own a business. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's
sitting in the middle of the store is personal property. When it gets
installed, it does not become part of the real property. It is a trade
fixture, and remains personal property.

See the difference?

In a single family home, there is no question, the cabinet becomes real
property. In a factory, a store, or any other facility that's clearly
commercial, the cabinet remains personal property because it's a trade
fixture. Multi-unit residential property is a tricky animal, and
different states may make draw the line differently. Inside a
residential unit is also going to be different than in common areas.

In a single family home, there is no question that in order for the
cable company to maintain a proprietary interest in the cable that's
installed, they would need a lien. They can't maintain a proprietary
interest in the cable once it becomes part of the real property.

In a commercial property, the cable company can keep a proprietary
interest in the trade fixtures they install if it's in the installation
contract. Even if they don't retain a proprietary interest in the cable,
it belongs to the business owner, not the landlord (the owner of the
real property). Whoever owns the trade fixture has a right to take it
with them, even after a sale of the real property, assuming that they
return the real property to pre-installation condition.

If someone occupieing an apartment installes a light fixture, before it
is installed, it's the renter's personal property. Once it's installed,
it's the landlord's real property, and the renter technically cannot
remove and restore without the real property owner giving up title to
the property. If a business is renting the property, when they install
that light fixture, it remains their personal property, and they can
remove and restore without requesting the real property owner give up
title because the real property owner never had title to the fixture.
But what about installing a fixture in a non-residental portion of an
apartment building, or the common area of a condo or co-op?

The question is when does personal property become real property. In the
case of a single family residential unit, it's clearly when that
personal property is installed. In the case of clearly commercial
property, that personal property can remain personal property even after
being installed because it's a trade fixture. The issue is where does
multi-unit residential property fall in this spectrum. And don't forget,
the common areas are different than the individual residential units,
too.

I would suggest that you did not present the question correctly to your
attorney friend. And I would also suggest that those situations in the
middle of the spectrum are exactly why attornies stay in business.
Absent of any clearly applicable statutes, it is quite possible for
there to be a difference of opinion based just on the Common Law that is
the foundation of our legal system. There can also be a difference in
opinion as to whether specific statues apply in a given case. So when
your attorney asked you "why would there be a difference", that could
also be taken as, "which side of the arguement do you want me to take",
as people on both sides will easily be able to find attornies who can
support either side of the arguement.



Nope. It comes down to the difference between when personal property
becomes real property, and how easily they can keep a proprietary
interest in the cable itself, versus what the benefit of retaining that
proprietary interest in the cable may be.

If there wasn't a difference, as soon as the MDU's contract for service
ended, they could simply use the cable left behind for whatever they
wanted to use it for, just the same way a homeowner can use the cable
installed in their property.

So in one case, the cable is personal property, specifically a trade
fixture, while in the other case, the cable becomes a part of the real
property. Simple concepts. What's questionable is where is the line
drawn. Single-family homes are clearly on one end of the spectrum. MDU's
are in the middle, and given that the cable companies routinely claim to
retain proprietary rights in the cable they install in MDU's, it's quite
clear that there is a difference.

If there isn't a difference, then either homeowners wouldn't be able to
convert their inside cabling for their own use, or the contracts that
the cable companies have with many MDU's would be unenforceable. But
again, you could easily get attorneys who would be willing to argue any
side of the issue, and offer compelling support for their position.

Our best bet is to go with what is practiced every day. And that is that
the cable companies treat single family homes differently than MDU's
regardless of the variations in state laws that could apply. The
practice is there is a difference, and that's what it comes down to.


--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.

Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker

Say what?

*TimDaniels*