Hello!

I'm looking to replace a modem leased by my father from RCN -- it requires
weekly power-cycling and costs $5/month.

I'd like to replace it with an internal one to reduce the clutter, etc. Zoom
5001 seems a good candidate, for example.

RCN has a list of "approved" modems at:

http://www.rcn.com/customer/internet...hp#cablemodems

none of the listed ones are internal, however.

An RCN tech-support has just told me, unfortunately, that:

. a technician would need to be dispatched to configure the new modem
(for "just" $50 -- the price of a modem itself);
. the technician will _refuse to touch_ a modem not on the list;
. the "configuration" consists of simply writing down the modem's MAC
address and, possibly, the serial number and registering that with their
Server -- nothing, that really requires a personal visit;
. no, I will not be able to just call them and tell them the number(s) --
the call center has no access to the Server, and I will not be able to
call the Dispatch, which has.

Can anyone corroborate the story? In the past different technicians at RCN
have told me nearly opposite things... Is it possible to get unapproved
modem working with RCN? Is it possible to also avoid the extra $50? Thanks!

-mi

A external cable modem is *much better* than an internal one !

You can't use a Cable/DSL Router with an Internal one unless you know how and want to build
your own Router.

Dave



"Mikhail Teterin" <mi+pvm@aldan.algebra.com> wrote in message
news:1659633.0IxhITOlMB@Misha...
| Hello!
|
| I'm looking to replace a modem leased by my father from RCN -- it requires
| weekly power-cycling and costs $5/month.
|
| I'd like to replace it with an internal one to reduce the clutter, etc. Zoom
| 5001 seems a good candidate, for example.
|
| RCN has a list of "approved" modems at:
|
| http://www.rcn.com/customer/internet...hp#cablemodems
|
| none of the listed ones are internal, however.
|
| An RCN tech-support has just told me, unfortunately, that:
|
| . a technician would need to be dispatched to configure the new modem
| (for "just" $50 -- the price of a modem itself);
| . the technician will _refuse to touch_ a modem not on the list;
| . the "configuration" consists of simply writing down the modem's MAC
| address and, possibly, the serial number and registering that with their
| Server -- nothing, that really requires a personal visit;
| . no, I will not be able to just call them and tell them the number(s) --
| the call center has no access to the Server, and I will not be able to
| call the Dispatch, which has.
|
| Can anyone corroborate the story? In the past different technicians at RCN
| have told me nearly opposite things... Is it possible to get unapproved
| modem working with RCN? Is it possible to also avoid the extra $50? Thanks!
|
| -mi
|

David H. Lipman wrote:

And as far as them having to come out, I don't even know
what RCN is, but Adelphia can do it over the phone or online.
I think they're trying to screw you over.

In addition to sticking with the external modem as suggested
(along with a router/firewall for $30-50), it would be prudent
to stay with their list of approved modems if you ever want
it to work. Hopefully they have a Motorola SB5100 on their
list since that would be my choice.

Mikhail Teterin wrote:

It's not on the list. It can't be provisioned. End of story.

A wise move on their part. The concept of an internal cablemodem is a
very bad one. If your current modem needs to be power-cycled once a
week, the problem is more likely to be someplace on the HFC network, and
not the modem. If you could have an internal modem, instead of simply
power-cycling the modem, you would need to reboot the computer. You also
loose the ability to look at the lights on the front of the modem to
monitor it, and you need to depend upon software.



Even if all they do is write down the MAC, and call it in to be
provisioned, if the require a tech to visit to do this, then that's what
they require. If they don't offer an alternative, you don't have an
alternative. The reality is that they likely treat this like any
install, and check signal levels and such. They may replace splitters,
remove A/B switches, remove unapproved amps, and any other equipment
that may cause a problem. In other words, they're going to make sure
that they don't have to make a second trip out there to check their
stuff.

But that's all moot if you don't even have an approved modem. A modem
that is not approved cannot be provisioned. Period. You're not in a
position to change the rules. You can choose to accept them. Or you can
choose to not accept them and get service someplace else. An unapproved
modem is not an insignificant detail. It's a deal breaker.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: Spend your Amazon gift certificates here:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/associateshop.html

Yep -- The Motorola SB5100 is !

Dave ;-)



"$Bill" <news@SPAMOLAtodbe.com> wrote in message news:m5ednUn0qJdkhr7dRVn-jw@adelphia.com...
| David H. Lipman wrote:
|
| > A external cable modem is *much better* than an internal one !
| >
| > You can't use a Cable/DSL Router with an Internal one unless you know how and want to
build
| > your own Router.
|
| And as far as them having to come out, I don't even know
| what RCN is, but Adelphia can do it over the phone or online.
| I think they're trying to screw you over.
|
| In addition to sticking with the external modem as suggested
| (along with a router/firewall for $30-50), it would be prudent
| to stay with their list of approved modems if you ever want
| it to work. Hopefully they have a Motorola SB5100 on their
| list since that would be my choice.
|

Warren wrote:

But it can! All they need is the MAC address, which I can give them over the
phone. And, of course, _technically_ this is possible -- see, for example,
$Bill's follow-up to my original question
<m5ednUn0qJdkhr7dRVn-jw@adelphia.com>:

And as far as them having to come out, I don't even know
what RCN is, but Adelphia can do it over the phone or online.
I think they're trying to screw you over.

I don't think, RCN is trying to "screw me over", it may just be the only
"procedure" they have for modem replacement. And I'm asking, if anyone has
gone through a different procedure with them...

Wherever or whatever the problem is, the fact that a simple power-cycling
resolves it means, that a software (or firmware) solution to the problem is
possible. The 3Com modem they gave us years ago is, probably, wanting an
upgrade, but they are not offering it.

How hard is it to run ifconfig and check the "status" line? The internal
modem's interface to the computer is that of a network interface (NIC). So
whatever your software can do to, say, and Ethernet card can also be done
to a modem.

To start DHCP negotiations:

dhclient dc0

To reset:

ifconfig dc0 down
ifconfig dc0 up

To check the status:

ifconfig dc0 | grep status:

I see your point, but -- unlike the millions out there, that chose to depend
on lousy Microsoft's offerings -- I have some reasons to believe, that my
software will be more dependable, than that inside (most of) the cable
modems. I may be wrong, of course, and this particular hardware driver will
disappoint me, but I'd like to try -- if it was not for RCN's bureaucratic
stubborness. I can always go back to their modem if the internal does not
work. The hardware even costs less than the $50, they say they charge to
just go out and "provision" it. For example:

http://store.yahoo.com/digitally-unique/i81581.html

or just:

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=Zoom+5001
http://www.epinions.com/CableModem_5001_S0798886

The OS I'm using (FreeBSD) offers a reliable firewall and can act as a
router properly shoud I need to add another node onto the network.

I used the standard router/firewall and cable-modem setup in the past and am
fed up by now -- whenever the connection disappears you have to power-cycle
the router and the cable modem in a certain order. And sometimes you have
to disconnect the cable too, but other times you should not... And these
boxes and their cables add clutter and their bulky power-supplies eat up
two power-outlets each...

Also, all consumer routers out there can barely do NAT properly. Some don't
even allow you to ping through them -- forget about traceroute-ing!

If you re-read my original comment, this is exactly, what I'm asking -- do
they _really_ require such a thing? Because their reps have in the past
given me almost contradictory answers to several other questions. If --
contrary to what I was told by this one rep -- it is, in fact, possible to
simply call them with the new MAC address of the modem, I'd like to try the
internal one -- on "my own risk", of course.

They did all that, when they made the install in the first place. We made no
changes whatsoever since...

Again. My whole question is: "Are these really the rules?" Or is this what
this particular rep was told by her particular supervisor -- with another
shift having a different idea and understanding. RCN is not a tightly run
ship AT ALL -- believe me, I've dealt with them for years. Their core
network is good, but their right limbs don't always know, what the left
ones are up to.

That's the problem -- we can't. The whole 28-storey building is "pre-wired"
by RCN and no other cable (TV or modem) service is available. DSL offerings
are slower at the same price, with the exception of Verizon, which is
cheap, but whose service sucked so badly, we dumped it 2 years ago.

All this being said, I sensed certain hostility in your response. Why?
What's wrong with what I'm trying to do? It is not like I'm trying to cheat
them out of monthly payment or to "uncap" the higher bandwidth... I just
refuse to accept the need to periodicly power-cycle the hardware as
something "normal" and would like to reduce the clutter of this computer
installation.

-mi

"Mikhail Teterin" <mi+pvm@aldan.algebra.com> wrote in message
news:1255344.vgi16X12As@Misha...
Cable modems NEED a boot file. If your provider does not have the boot file
for your modem then you are screwed...period.

grinch

Mikhail Teterin wrote:
You have read far more into Bill's message than what is there.

If the modem is on the approved list, entering the MAC address in the
database might be all that needs to be done. Whatever else needs to be
done in a particular case on a particular MSO can be different. If the
modem is on the approved list, there may be differences in some of the
other details that need to be done procedurally from MSO to MSO. For
example, entering that MAC address probably won't change the billing
codes. There may also be other technical or procedural details related
to their particular system.

But all that is if the modem is on the approved list.

If the modem is not on the approved list, the game is over. Nothing else
matters. Period.

Each modem on the system needs to be provisioned. Part of that
provisioning involves TFTP-ing a configuration file, and possibly a
firmware update, for that particular make and model of modem. If your
modem is not on the approved list, there is no configuration file for it
to download. You can enter the MAC address into the database, but the
provisioning cannot be completed.

In most cases you'll simply have an expensive door stop. The best case
scenario is that they tell the system that the MAC address belongs to a
supported modem, and it'll download the config file and any firmware
updates for the wrong modem, but it might be close enough that it'll
sort of work sometimes.

If the modem is not on the supported list, it doesn't matter what
actually goes on behind the scenes when you have a modem that's on the
supported list. You have a modem that isn't on the approved list. That's
as far as it goes.

Let me repeat that one more time, since you didn't seem to get it
despite how often it's already been said:
If your modem is not on the approved list, it cannot be
provisioned. Period.

Do you get it yet? It's not about whether or not they have to do more
than type a few numbers. It doesn't matter how much they charge to do
whatever they do when a supported modem is involved. It doesn't matter
what any of their policies are, or whether you think they could do
things better. Your modem is not on the list of approved modems.

Get a modem that's on the approved list. Until then, all the other stuff
is moot.

One more time for the slow people: If the modem is not on the approved
list, the modem is no different than a doorstop.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: Spend your Amazon gift certificates here:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/associateshop.html

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:31:27, "Grinch" <hobgoblin@penn.com> wrote:

Some cable-modems, e.g., the Terayon that Shaw Cable uses,
are *completely* provisioned remotely -- just power-cycle it to reset
it.
But, I have only *once* in the last couple of years had to reset it;
it's just plain "rock-solid". :-)

Melvin Klassen wrote:
Same with my Surfboard 3100. I haven't turned it off for over a year. It
sits upstairs in a closet with a router.

Warren wrote in <tLRUb.191235$nt4.819365@attbi_s51>:
Of course. And every auto-manufacturer will tell you the same story about
the "genuine" parts, and how anything else will void your warranty, explode
your car, and increase the chance of cance. Most of these claims are not
entirely truthful, and I suspect it to be the case here. Your countless
repetitions (for "slow people" and others) is not convincing. The modems
have been standardized over the years (DOCSIS?). Do you know, that RCN
needs them to be somehow customized on their network? From the sheer size
of the list of "approved" modems, it seems to me, they don't actually do
anything with them other than "write a few numbers down". I don't believe,
they would maintain dozens of different images for TFTP-ing (or even more
than five).

It "sort of works sometimes" _now_. I was wondering, if I can improve on
that. You are brow-beating me into giving up -- may be, it is time you
demonstrate your credentials, before I simply plonk you for really being an
arrogant a-hole, you appear to be from this thread...

Say it again.

And again.

You tried to substantiate this claim with some technical details, but they
can't possibly apply to all situations. For example, I know for a FACT,
that the Zoom 5001 internal PCI modem has no TFTP-client, yet works fine
for thousands of people.

For me to believe you (if you care), you'd have to be more specific... Do
you know anything about RCN's provisioning in particular, or do you speak
from your experience at some other cable-ISP (AT&T?)? Have you ever
"provisioned" a cable modem? Was it before or after the DOCSIS adoption?
Have you ever dealt with an internal modem? Perhaps you work for a
cable-modem manufacturer and were involved in compatibility issues with
ISPs?

Simply repeating: "You are a fool, do as you are told," is not convincing.

Thanks,

-mi

"Mikhail Teterin" <usenet@aldan.algebra.com> wrote in message
news:1344583.1yZimpMG5m@Misha...

Warren has been a source of useful and helpful information for many people
in this newsgroup for as long as I can remember. You, Mikhail, on the other
hand are coming off as an ungrateful know-it-all child. You posted a message
asking for help on something. Warren kindly replied. Then you challenge him,
not because he is wrong (he isnt) but because you dont like the answer.
Mikhail, the next time somebody tries to help you, say "thank you" rather
than arguing with them on something you asked for help on in the first
place.

Well said Giles !

Dave



"Giles Harney" <gharney@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:cYSdnQtMKrkdkbXdRVn-vw@comcast.com...
|
| "Mikhail Teterin" <usenet@aldan.algebra.com> wrote in message
| news:1344583.1yZimpMG5m@Misha...
|
| > It "sort of works sometimes" _now_. I was wondering, if I can improve on
| > that. You are brow-beating me into giving up -- may be, it is time you
| > demonstrate your credentials, before I simply plonk you for really being
| an
| > arrogant a-hole, you appear to be from this thread...
|
| Warren has been a source of useful and helpful information for many people
| in this newsgroup for as long as I can remember. You, Mikhail, on the other
| hand are coming off as an ungrateful know-it-all child. You posted a message
| asking for help on something. Warren kindly replied. Then you challenge him,
| not because he is wrong (he isnt) but because you dont like the answer.
| Mikhail, the next time somebody tries to help you, say "thank you" rather
| than arguing with them on something you asked for help on in the first
| place.
|
|
|

Mikhail Teterin wrote:
Brow-beating you into giving up? Giving up what?

I've told you how things work. You've chosen not to believe. It's not a
contest.





If you actually go back and read my posts, you'll see that I didn't just
tell you that it's the way it is. I told you *why* it's the way it is.
You chose not to believe because you suspect you already knew the
answer.

I suggest you go back and read my previous posts. I really don't give a
damn if you think I'm an asshole. If your ego is so fragile that being
told you're wrong blinds you so much that you don't even see that I've
taken the time to explain *why* you're wrong, then I suggest that you
plonk me, and go right on being an ignorant idiot who thinks that
someone who took the time to try to teach you about something you don't
understand is brow-beating you.


--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: Spend your Amazon gift certificates here:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/associateshop.html

Giles Harney wrote in <cYSdnQtMKrkdkbXdRVn-vw@comcast.com>:

As new-comer to this group, I have no way of knowing. Too much of Warren's
answers relied on his reputation among old timers.

I don't know it all, but -- not being a child -- I know, that
manufacturers' and service providers' claims -- especially regarding the
use of "genuine" parts and alike are often misleading and sometimes flat
out false.

I asked, if anybody tried to use an un-approved modem with RCN and/or
avoided a technician's visit to have a replacement modem (approved or not)
installed. Warren's -- not at all kind, BTW -- reply answered a different
question: "Is it possible to use an un-approved modem with any provider".

His answer -- the sound: "No!!!" -- lacked corroborating detail, so I asked
him for his credentials in <1344583.1yZimpMG5m@Misha>. In his follow-up --
<e0_Vb.136461$U%5.643152@attbi_s03> -- he continues to assert the "No!!!",
without backing it up with technical details nor personal credentials,
refering me to his earlier posts, which don't provide much either, while
his resentment of anyone, even thinking to try an unapproved method is
dripping off each post:

<GnHUb.185736$sv6.972098@attbi_s52>:
But that's all moot if you don't even have an approved modem. A
modem that is not approved cannot be provisioned. Period.

<tLRUb.191235$nt4.819365@attbi_s51>:
If the modem is not on the approved list, the game is over.
Nothing else matters. Period.

[...]

You have a modem that isn't on the approved list. That's
as far as it goes.

[...]

Ifšyouršmodemšisšnotšonšthešapprovedšlist,šitšcann otšbe
provisioned. Period.

[...]

None of the few possible reasons he states can possibly apply to all modems.
The only good his postings do is to warn me, that trying such a modem would
be difficult. Thanks for nothing -- I already knew that when I started the
thread...

-mi

WHY do you need an INTERNAL one? watts rong wid an Xternal 1? Huh?

"Mikhail Teterin" <mi+pvm@aldan.algebra.com> wrote in message
news:1659633.0IxhITOlMB@Misha...

Internal modems of any type are a Bad Idea.

Your PC lives in a safe little 3.3/5VDC world. Modems connect to
the Great Outdoors, a place where a god named Thor lives. Thor is
no threat to your machine, but his buddy is......and they always
travel as a party of two..

Care to guess what your PC backplane looks like after this uninvited
visitor leaves?

An external modem makes a great sacrificial object to unhappy gods.
Buy one today.



--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:

Not foolproof, but NOTHING stops a direct hit.

Your insistence on obtaining the irrefutable fact or the
'why' is admirable. They said the modem is not on the
approved list but not once provided a good engineering reason
for the 'why'. The answer was "We know its not on the
approved list and that is all you need know". A better answer
might be that RCN does not use a full set of DOCSIS - or RCN
just does not trust any customer to do anything correct.
Warren does suggest further possible reasons such as *maybe*
they do certain provisioning. Why does RCN put on these
requirements? Every answer has one underlying common thread -
"we don't really know, but we speculate that .... ".

Kudos for asking questions persistently as any good engineer
or innovator would. But unfortunately, the answers are only
typical of good technicians who know how to use equipment,
don't know RCN from an engineer's perspective, and really
don't know underlying details of why only some equipment
works.

RCN should only require a MAC address. Apparently RCN has
other criteria such as maybe they want to inspect your site
for other 'not provided' reasons. I can think of three or
four reasons why they might want a technician to visually
inspect your site should you make changes. But that too would
not answer your questions - only add to the list of speculated
reasons.

Suppose you told RCN the old modem died, a new modem is now
on site, and you want to put new modem on-line. If that is
sufficient and they accept the MAC address, then good.
However, part of every MAC address is unique - identifies the
manufacturer. They might complain. In short, I suggest that
you try it - see what happens. That is how innovation
happens. That is also why the phone company can no longer
tell you which phones and modems can and cannot be used.
People innovated and caused archaic rules to be changed.

There is absolutely no good reason to power cycle a modem
weekly - other than a gross defect known to RCN when they
provided the modem. For example, DSP program inside modem
might have a bug that is cleared by power cycling. Instead of
upgrading the modem, RCN instead had you perform a weekly
kludge solution.

Reasons given for not using an internal modem (other than
not on approved list) are not relevant. Your interest in an
internal modem is admirable and typical of how innovators
think. It could be that RCN's implementation of DOCSIS once
was defective - and this 'only approved modem' solution solved
a problem that no longer exists. Approved list also negates
an RCN tech from putting hands inside a computer. No good
reason has been provided for 'only approved modems'; only
speculation. However no company wants to roll a truck twice
because the customer bought a known and crap modem (only used
price to select a modem) - or because the computer did not
have a spare slot for the internal modem.

Try it. Don't tell them the modem is not on approved list.
Just provide information and see what happens. Currently the
weekly reboot is not acceptable.

Mikhail Teterin wrote: