I have been in here before and got help from you guys.

I have been working for some time on this and thought I had it licked.

Two metal buildings 150' apart that had been connected for years with
coax through a 2" PVC pipe.

One building is the "PLANT" which has 2 workstations only and the
other building "OFFICES"

First,I went nuts trying to get my fish tape through this 150' 2" PVC
pipe to the point where I finally had to dig up 12' of the thing and
beat hell out of it to get the tape by a coupling.
(besides the fact the idiot who laid the pipe initially has 5 90's in
a continuous pipe)

I have a media convertor on each end (MILAN 180C) that the CAT 5 is
plugged into (a patch cord from a switch)

It is one meter long on the plant side, but 100' approximately on the
OFFICE side.

I get no signal with cat 5 up to 150' fiber between two media
convertors.

I have network at the end of the CAT 5, the cable has been tested and
I also pulled a secondary CAT 5 through the PVC to connect in case
this FIBER deal didn't work right away. (BOY AM I GLAD I DID!!!)

so it's CAT 5 from the main switch to a convertor, to 150' of fiber in
an underground PVC pipe then a convertor and a switch to the 2
stations in the plant.

Any ideas?


Finally now I get the new fiber in and connected and I get no activity
and no connection.

Any help here now would be appreciated.

Cat 5 from a switch 100' away to the media convertor at one end, and a
switch immediately right after the convertor at the other end.

Someone said I need a CROSSOVER CABLE from the switch to the
convertor. Also, with the one switch 100' away on one end does that
matter? Should I install a switch there at the point it changes over?


Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

Roscoe Pendoscoe wrote:
It depends on the particular equipment. Some switches auto-sense.
Other equipment has some means for inserting the equivalent of a
crossover -- often that's called an "uplink" port. If your status
LEDs are off, and you're sure the equipment is good and powered up,
there's a pretty good chance that a crossover is what it wants.
Try it and see. You can couple a short crossover to the long cable,
and use a crossover directly on the other end -- if the LEDs suddenly
come on, Bob's your uncle.

Also, with the one switch 100' away on one end does that
no, you should be good to 100 meters, assuming you're using properly
installed Cat5 cable

Should I install a switch there at the point it changes over?

no, unless there are other facts warranting it


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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:35:44 GMT, CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote:

ran my tester on the section from the switch 100' away and shows GOOD.
Actually have the network running fine with the extra CAT 5 I pulled
along with the FIBER that was to be replacing COAX.. Put some ends on
it and plugged into the switch and it works fine.

Actually a bit speedier than the old COAX.

That would mean the fiber is not connecting....yes?

Have the MILAN 180C media convertor on each end. Moved a jumper that
mentioned auto-sensing full or half-duplex which I changed with no
luck.

The SMC mini switches I believe mention that a crossover is not
needed............who knows.

Now, I am an ELECTRICIAN with limited networking experience. I
purchased 2 spools (100m) of fiber with pre-installed SC ends on them.
One to use, one for a spare just in case.

Since I am no expert here, does it matter what TYPE of fiber? "NEW EMC
100M FIBER OPTIC SC TO SC FIBRE SPOOL EMC1046" 50/125
I will try Wednesday or Thursday with the crossover

The manual says any port this switch will auto uplink though

All lights are green, no activity.
I have been trying to get this job done for the better part of 2
months. Off and on of course.

Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

Roscoe Pendoscoe wrote:
That's probably just a continuity test. If the pairings aren't being
honored, the cable can look good (i.e. continuous) but fail at
frequency. What's worse (and could be happening here) is that if the
cable isn't wired correctly, it can pass continuity testing, work with
_some_ combinations of equipment, and yet fail with other (more fussy)
equipment.

Are these professionally made cables?

That sounds right.

There are several kinds of auto-sensing. The one that's important
here is auto-sensing whether a crossover is needed. That's different
from FDX/HDX and speed negotiation.

I'm not a fiber expert, but I believe it does matter. The docs for the
fiber converters should say.

If the lights are green, the crossover is probably not needed.
However, it's a cheap thing to try, and I've seen (rarely) equipment
that purports to auto-detect everything and get all set up
automatically, but still only works when things are made explicit.

Good thing the fallback Cat5 works!


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On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:30:47 GMT, CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote:

First, let me thank you for taking your time to help me.

Really appreciate it.

Yes, just a continuity test
Well, I am a professional.........

No, I ran them and put ends on them. No small feat as this is a huge
building with thirty foot ceilings. I wouldn't want to have to do it
again. Comes out of the office where the server and switch reside,
enters a warehouse. Requires the use of a lift.
CAT 5 but I still have a copper connection which I was trying to get
away from.
I am pretty well certain I do not have bad fiber run. Both couldn't be
bad.

I opted for factory installed ends on the fiber as I watched a video
"HOW TO".......no thanks, plus the cost of tools for a one time deal.
But, do they put the ends on these things in the proper manner?

I guess they would have to, be some bad feedback if not.
When I researched this job and got info from a couple folks, I don't
remember anything regarding the fiber.

When they say single mode or dual mode, is that just a fancy way to
say a TX/RX in one cable, i.e. 2 fibers together an A channel and a B
channel so to speak?

Single mode would be just one?
Yeah boy! I'd have a boatload of trouble.

Did I mention my Wife works there?

I.T. and Special Projects Manager. Already I am catching an earful of
why & how come it's not done.

The owners are cash poor and I purchased the materials and equipment
on eBAY to save them some money and have not submitted a bill for any
labor yet. I paid my apprentice to dig the hole and help pull the
wire(s).

Gets me more nervous by the day. If I don't get this thing to work
I'll be out some cash I know because she'll insist I eat the entire
thing.

Yeesh!

Anyway, thanks again!!!!!!!!!
Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

Roscoe Pendoscoe wrote:
I just hope together we can ultimately solve the mystery.
Well, here's a potential issue. Continuity is not enough. It is
vital that the pairings of the cable be maintained so that the two
sides of each differential signal be in the same twisted pair.
For historic reasons (ATT vs. the rest of the world +/-), there are
two associated standards, either one of which can be used.

This might help:

http://www.linksys.com/faqs/default.asp?fqid=20

A crossover cable, in essence, mixes the standards. (Hope that makes
sense.) If you Google

568a 568b

you'll turn up thousands of hits about the standards.

A typical symptom of cabling which does not honor the pairings is
that it will work at 10Mbps but not at 100Mbps (because crosstalk
and noise are less of an issue at the slower speed). Thus, you
might be able to check whether that's the problem by temporarily
forcing (via software or the insertion of 10base-T hubs on each
end) the system to run at 10Mbps.

This kind of thing is especially frustrating because some equipment
tolerates the associated problems much better than other equipment,
so that the precise configuration matters. Thus, if the copper/fiber
converters were less tolerant than your switches, you could generate
symptoms just like you're seeing.

If you were not careful to pick either 568a or 568b and stick with
it, I can almost guarantee that's your problem, and that re-terminating
the cables according to the standard will make a difference. Usenet
is chock full of discussions about this issue. Typically the complaint
is "My network worked fine until I went from 10 Mbps to 100 Mbps" or
"As soon as my cable length exceeded 30 (+/-) feet, it stopped working."

Another idea that occurs to me is to set up a very short fiber link
using a couple of PCs, your current drop cables, the wire-to-optical
converters, and a short length of fiber, and see whether you get
the connectivity that's now lacking.

I doubt you'll have to re-run them, but you might have to redo the
terminations if the pairings are incorrect.

With a Cat5 connection you should have _no_ connection problems
attributable to the wiring up to 100 meters unless you are in a
severe environment, IMHO. I run gigabit over Cat5 here, and
it just works.

I thought it was more fundamental with that, having to do with the
wavelengths of light they're designed to pass, but I don't claim to
be an expert.


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On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:38:48 GMT, CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote:

The magic words.........The old owner had his own ideas how 568B
should be done.........with the pin side UP. I only discovered that by
redoing all the inside the office connections.

I think you have done me a great big favor.

I didn't think that what was in the plant coming out of the switch
would matter.

YES YES!!

It is 4:30 AM Thursday and I am off to my regular gig.

Late today I will stop by and try.

THANK YOU!
Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:38:48 GMT, CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote:


You will see I responded briefly this AM regarding the standard to
which the old property owner wired the offices.

When I went in to tidy-up some of the office connections that were
dropped out of the ceiling I found when I went to use jacks, I got no
connectivity whatsoever.

He is an engineer and programmer, so we are talking an educated fellow
here
Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 04:46:15 -0600, Roscoe Pendoscoe
<MrShade@Dont_Send_I_Wont_See_it.com> wrote:


I don't know if my other message went through earlier, I fell asleep
briefly with my finger on the keyboard. Long day actually and was not
able to get over to the office to try the new cables on the plant
side.

What I was typing when I fell asleep was that the old owner is an
engineer and programmer and certainly no dope but he had his own ideas
on how things should be done.

All the drops were hanging from the ceiling panels and when I tried to
tidy it up and put jacks in the wall, I found out that he had used
568G, The G being for George. When I talked to him about it, he said,
well as long as all of them were the same, what trouble or harm could
it cause?

Well, if anyone else but him did any work on it, and they did not know
of his special set-up, well you can't imagine the extra time it took
me to figure out what the problem was when I replaced the main switch
and patch-panel. It then turned into hours long job to cut off ll the
ends and rdo them properly to work.

One funny aside is that he "taught" one of his employees his technique
who used it exclusively when he built hisnew home and wired it. that
way throughout..

Anyhow, I have changed most connection to 568B.

All I have to do is change those four in the plant and we will know if
that is the problem.

I am very familiar with those standards, unlikeGeorge.

Thanks for jogging my brain again. I will get over there at the
earliest to try changing the existing cabling. I asked my Wife to
order manufactured cables of the properlength. I don't feel like
making them although she says they come in 568A only. Is this true?
Will be a problem won't it, since the rest is 568B correct?

I'll make them if need be.
Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

Roscoe Pendoscoe wrote:
<snip>

Actually, it should not be a problem, since they're congruent (same
but for wire color, and the electrons don't know what color the wires
are). The important thing is the _pairings_, and both standards are
the same in that regard.


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CJT wrote:
I don't know whether that was clear. Each cable needs to stick to A or
B, but you can mix A and B cables in a single run.

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On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:51:02 -0600, Roscoe Pendoscoe
<MrShade@Dont_Send_I_Wont_See_it.com> wrote:

I will be going today in about 2 hours and will know if in fact either
the "George" standard is the culprit, or using a crossover cable helps
it to connect properly. New manufactured cables came in Friday.
Thought best rather making my own. The cost is so small versus the
time it takes me to make 'em..........well no contest.
Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

Roscoe Pendoscoe wrote:
I'm sitting here in Austin, Texas with my fingers crossed for you. <g>


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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:42:10 GMT, CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote:

Well up here in the tundra, Andover, Minnesota,

Failure I have to report.

I have tried everything.

With x-overs, without. Used the 2nd spare run of fiber I pulled.

I even ran the fiber across the floor of the warehouse (as I have
enough) to get right up to the main switch in the office. I tried the
spare media convertors. Both again with and w/o x-overs.

All that would rule out that long overhead CAT 5 run we had a concern
about not being OK, or the improperly wired CAT 5 in the PLANT.

I am very frustrated. This is a big place and all the back and forth
to test each and every change. And, every time I changed the jumper in
the convertors.

The hardware again is;

Main switch***** SMC 6824M****
Media Convertors ****MILAN 180C****
Fiber***EMC 50/125 with SC factory installed connectors*****
Desktop Switch in plant *****SMC EZ105 DT**** tried with and w/o

I would think I have to test the fiber somehow. Or these Media
Convertors are not the proper ones for this application.

The fiber run is 158'

I am so frustrated as I said, it is beyond my ability to express it in
it's entirety. I don't exactly know what I should do at this point to
be honest. I do not have, or have an ability to get the proper test
equipment I may or may not need.


Any thoughts...............please.

Now, I have my fingers crossed


Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade really Rick Carpenter/Electrician (no kidding)





Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

Roscoe Pendoscoe wrote:
Darn. I was convinced we were on the right track.

I think the best bet now is to contact Milan (or somebody with some
intimate knowledge of their products) and confirm that the combination
of their converters with that particular fiber (and other equipment)
should work.

BTW, I was looking at the manual for the Milan devices, and I note that
they specify cross-connecting the fibers:

"Cross-connect the fiber cables: Attach both fiber cables TX to RX and
RX to TX from the fiber network cabling to the ST-type (or SC-type)
connectors on the MIL-180C/T."

I assume you did that?

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On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 19:45:01 GMT, CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote:

Well now, I am not certain about that.

That I also read that and my Wife also made mention of it and I looked
at the connector end and they are joined and only plug in one way.

Or, so I thought. If this is as simple as pulling the connector apart
and reversing one, I will fall over dead.

The two ends are clipped/joined, it just doesn't look as if you would
be even able to plug them in if you were to separate them.

Now, I have to go there sooner than I thought and give this a closer
look and see if if fact it can be done.

I keep saying this cannot be that difficult. I talked to someone who
used the Milan for this very same purpose. Plus the fact it even
appears to look proper when hooked up. I have stood back (between
trips back & forth) and stared at this thing, also a few words of
strong encouragement............

Now listen to this, I just turned to the Wife and asked her, "bring
home one of the spools so I can take a close look at the ends
tomorrow, I don't know when I can get there" She says, "you want me to
yank it out of the pipe so you can see this thing?"

That's how goofy I am getting.

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your help and advice with this
issue. And if it turns out I can in fact reverse the plug and that
works I will have to get your address.

Regards,

Rick

Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

Roscoe Pendoscoe wrote:
You have a good attitude. I've always found "press on regardless" is
the only way to ultimately succeed where computers are involved.

Regards,

Charlie

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On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 02:12:33 GMT, CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net> wrote:


I will tell you something I truly believe in and try to follow in all
my work.

Some of the people I work for, when I run into things like this in my
electrical business, I tell them my credo is "You can't beat me". Some
laugh,but in the end they appreciate the fact I will get it done.

My wife has heard it a hundred times and knows it, but in this case,
she's getting a bit frustrated because of her connection to the job.

You just have a different way of expressing the same thing. Amazing.

Regards,

Rick

Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 05:40:00 -0600, Roscoe Pendoscoe
<MrShade@Dont_Send_I_Wont_See_it.com> wrote:

This is the same item(s) I used on my project.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6947 684&rd=1



Would you mind taking a peek at this picture of the ends of fiber on
this spool on eBAY?

It is the exact thing I am using. If you can see, the two ends are
clipped together and are inserted that way. I dont think they can be
plugged in otherwise..

Opinion?

Thanks,

Rick

Regards,

Roscoe aka MrShade

Roscoe Pendoscoe wrote:
I dunno. I suspect the termination can be undone and reversed, but
I don't claim any expertise.

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