Jerry Nash hurled his feces through the zoo bars and shrieked:

yea, except that hyperdimensonal M theory shows all that Godel stuff to be
crap.

with enough dimensions, it's all deterministic and predictable again.

plus the recent discovery about the edge of the universe accelerating
leads us to the conclusion that the Universe is a negatively curved
hyperbolic space.

Therefore, there is not incompleteness in the sense of never knowing, but
incompleteness in the sense of it not having been created yet.

I know what you said on Tuesday 15 July 2003 08:07, monkey.

No, it's merely shoving the embarrassing bits away in an unused
dimension and hoping nobody'll notice it.

But Goedel was referring to questions asked about the *other* *side* of
that edge. This is like when someone proves that you cannot know what's
on the other side of the fence because it's too high and he gets the
reply: 'No, it's okay. We know now. The fence isn't green, it's blue'.
--
Jazz.

"I'm just more practically gifted," said Wobbler.
"You mean you just press keys until something happens."
"Well? Often things do happen."

(Johnny and the Dead - Terry Pratchett)

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 06:07:18 GMT, monkey <monkey@shriek.com> wrote:
references please.

All evidence points to the Universe being spatially flat:

http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/6/3

"This physical scale translates to an angular scale in the sky that
depends on the curvature of the universe. If the universe is negatively
curved, or has a lower density, the predicted peak shifts to smaller
angles. In effect, the gravity field of the universe acts like a lens.

Boomerang has measured the peak with unprecedented precision and gives
confirmation of the primordial origin of the fluctuations. Moreover,
the measured peak agrees precisely with the expectation for a flat
universe. The location of the peak means that the density of matter is
within 10% of the critical value. The universe must therefore be dominated
by dark energy - the modern reincarnation of the cosmological constant.

Tentative measurements of the distances to Type Ia supernovae show
evidence that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, as predicted
for a universe that is spatially flat but in which two-thirds of the critical
density is accounted for by the dark energy associated with the cosmological
constant (B P Schmidt et al. 1998 Astrophys. J. 507 46 and S Perlmutter et al.
1999 Astrophys. J. 517 565). Hence cosmologists are happy, and a consistent
cosmological model beckons with independent verification of an unexpected key
parameter from two totally independent experiments."


http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...a-results.html

"One can readily see structure in the map on roughly a one-degree angular
scale," says MAXIMA team member George Smoot, of Berkeley Lab's Physics
Division and UC Berkeley, who pioneered studies of CMB anisotropies with an
experiment aboard the COBE satellite in the early 1990s. "Structures in the
early universe with a size of nearly one degree show that the universe has
a geometry that is very nearly flat -- the same geometry, Euclid's, that we
all studied in high school."

Jerry Nash hurled his feces through the zoo bars and shrieked:

so who are you going to listen to: the entire Establishment scientific
community with their big budgets, ph. ds and libraries

or

a raving usenet lunatic ?

THE CHOICE IS YOURS !!!!

S H R I E K ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:48:48 GMT, monkey <monkey@shriek.com> wrote:

didn't Tom Petty tell who was going to listen to what?

not much choice there, eh

The Chimp uses his toes to tap out :
' With enough dimensions ,
it's all deterministic and predictable again . "


The observed spookiness ,
the lack of Apparent local causes ,
the probabilistic shit ,
is just that ... Observed ... Not real .

Absolute determinism will Always be impossible to observe ...
it can Never be modeled .

Still , Newton , Maxwell , Einstein etc. all thought that :
The future is immutably fixed , most likely .

Einstein even said " God's " actions are immutably fixed .

Our minds are fated to be notionally " Responsible "
issuing rewards and punishments in order to consume ...
to exploit our special niche .

Jerry Nash quotes cosmologists :
" [ Our observed universe has ] the same geometry ,
Euclid's , that we all studied in high school . "


In other words :
Nasa ( Via WMAP etc. ) has determined that
our observed universe is
perfectly homogenous at large scales .

See Nasa.GOV :
http://tinyurl.com/awnt http://tinyurl.com/awnl
http://tinyurl.com/awpt http://tinyurl.com/awlm

( Even though the universe is homogenous ,
still , it's a bit " curdled " . )

On 16 Jul 2003 10:00:14 GMT, Jeff Relf <____Jeff-Relf@NCPlus.NET>
wrote:


math...

I'll have to issue myslef another entrenching tool

jrynash@attglobal.net (Jerry Nash) wrote in message news:<slrnbh8ejg.i87.jrynash@attglobal.net>...

http://www.astro.princeton.edu/~dns/nas_neg/node2.html

Introduction

There is growing evidence that we live in a negatively curved
universe. A number of independent arguments suggest that the matter
density is significantly less than the critical density: comparisions
of density fluctuations and velocity fields (Willick & Strauss 1995;
Davis, Nusser & Willick 1996; Riess et al. 1997); determination of
mass-to-light ratios in clusters (Bahcall, Lubin & Dorman 1995);
measurements of the baryon to dark matter ratio in clusters (S. White
et al. 1993; Lubin et al. 1996; D. White, Jones & Forman 1997); the
presence of more large scale structure than expected in flat models
(Da Costa et al. 1994; Lin et al. 1996); the need to reconcile the
value of the Hubble constant with globular cluster ages (Spergel,
Bolte & Freedman 1997); the existence of large numbers of clusters at
moderate redshift (Carlberg et al. 1997; Bahcall, Fan & Cen 1997). A
number of groups have shown that CDM models with are compatible with
microwave background measurements and large scale structure
(Kamionkowski & Spergel 1994; Ratra et al. 1997). While we cannot rule
out the possibility that there is a cosmological constant (e.g.,
Steinhardt & Ostriker 1995) that makes the universe flat, recent high
redshift supernova observations (Perlmutter et al. 1997), as well as
gravitational lens statistics (Turner 1990; Falco, Kochanek & Munoz
1997), suggest that this term is small.

There has been growing interest in the possibility that the universe
is not only negatively curved, but compact (Gott 1980; Fagundes 1983;
Cornish, Spergel & Starkman 1996a, 1996b; Bond, Pogosyan & Souradeep
1997; Levin et al. 1997). Our interest in the topology of the universe
was stimulated by the possibility that it may be detectable and by the
philosophical attractions of a finite universe (Cornish, Spergel &
Starkman 1996a). This talk reviews some basic concepts in topology and
then turns to the possibility of detecting the observational signature
of a finite universe.