Is it fair for programmers to work long hours of overtime and not get
paid for the work? If you are a programmer who has been working for a
while you probably
know there can be some issues with not getting paid for overtime.
Companies can take advantage of programmers with the long hours needed
to complete projects. If you feel you are having difficulty getting
paid for what you have
done, you are not alone. There are people out there who are willing to
lend a hand. Check out this site:
http://www.bigclassaction.com/class_.../computer.html
You can send them a complaint for free and they pass them along to
lawyers for evaluation. This one seems to be specifically for
programmers who have worked for Computer Sciences Corporation. There
is, however, lots of other info on the site that might be more to what
you need, but this is a currently hot subject. I hope this might help
somebody out.

kr0

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:40:09 -0800, Kent Ross wrote:


Ah... Another class action suit, or commonly known as the "Attorneys
Obscenely Funded Retirement Fund"

You know... Where the poor overworked programmers will get a check for
$37.10 and the lawyers will split 47 million.

Sp

On 4 Nov 2003 16:40:09 -0800, Kent Ross <kentr0ss@yahoo.com> wrote:

No, of course not. Which is why I think it is kinda weird that so many
programmers are anti-union.


--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/

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On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 03:07:07 GMT,
Bob Hauck <postmaster@localhost.localdomain> wrote:

Cause unions take the money out of your pocket, without a resultant
return that makes it worth it ?

When I lived and worked in the LA area, I worked aerospace, most of the
companies, were unionised, fortunately, TRW wasn't. We made more, had
more vacation, and fewer layoffs, plus, no union fees, no political
bullshit from the "stewards" and no nepotism from the union.

No thanks, I've heard that song, I'll pass thanks. You go right ahead if
you want to hold yourself back.

There was a need for unions, or at least unity, when the mine owners were
machinegunning the workers. Not anymore.

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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Does Emacs have the Buddha nature? Why not? It has bloody well everything
else

Jim Richardson wrote:

The "resultant return" is a matter of debate.

An exceptional company is not the norm. I have no information to confirm or
deny your assertions, but I can say that is not the "norm" of the industry.

Don't be so quick to dismiss.
I disagree with you.

My dad was a union iron worker. When I was younger, I didn't really
understand the union. As I worked in the field for a while, I totally see
the need for a union.

Think about the jobs going to india. Think about the 70 hour weeks. Think
about the layoffs. Think about the lack or process, wouldn't it be
beneficial for the industry for a real trade based project specification
methodology?

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On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 05:33:36 GMT,
mlw <mlw@nospam.no> wrote:

I'm not, it was plainly obvious, every time that the union came around,
trying to form a local, that what they offered, wasn't worth what they
wanted to charge. Simple as that.


Not really, no. The unions, drag the system down. They become a way to
avoid getting fired, rather than a way to get the job done.

As long as the union is small, doesn't have permanent employees, other
than perhaps a secretary. When all the stewards are workers first. Then
they can work. When those positions start to become permanent, with them
being handed out as bennies to the "in" crowd, then the union is on it's
way to being just another bunch of parasites.

Unions don't protect standards, or process, they try to get back to the
"good old guild days." where a man could be whipped for building a
chair, if he was a paper maker.

No thanks.

You like it? you belong to one. I'll pass, and as long as you are happy
to leave me alone. I'll be happy.


For a while (about 6mos) I worked as a temp for Roadway. The perm
employees were all union, it was a *requirement*! The temps, could chose
to join, or not. I chose to not join. The threats started out pretty
subtle. Half jokes about accident rates, stuff like that. Then the rear
brake on my bike was fucked with. I solved that problem in a very direct
way, but decided I'd rather work somewhere else, than put up with that
stuff.

While I was there, it was obvious who was a temp (and not union) and
who was union. Anyone moving at more than a snails pace, wasn't union.

The people arguing about why they shouldn't have to do something, were
union. I just wanted to work, and get paid.

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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
We aim to please. Ourselves, mostly, but we do aim to please.
Anthony DeBoer

kentr0ss@yahoo.com (Kent Ross) wrote:

Yes ... you need to talk to your job shop about the issue.

Only if they let them.


Watch out for that hand! It's heading for your wallet!



Tsu Dho Nimh

--
When businesses invoke the "protection of consumers," it's a lot like
politicians invoking morality and children - grab your wallet and/or
your kid and run for your life.

Bob Hauck <postmaster@localhost.localdomain> wrote:

Way back when I worked in hospitals, I worked in a non-union
hospital on the east coast. We were constantly the target of
unionization campaigns. We made more money and had better working
conditions (hours, vacations, eqjuipment) than the fully
unionized hospital across the rivre. Three times we had to
resort to renting U-Hauls and bringing in medical supplies
because the teamsters union was on strike and local delivery
firms were not delivering.

As far as I could tell, the money that came out of the unionized
hospital workers paychecks went to paying the obscenely large
salaries of the local officials. Our hospital administration
countered the unionization drives by posting photos of where the
local officials lived: all in the $$$ neighborhoods, all with
kids in private schools, all driving expensive new cars. They
weren't concerned about us or what we did - we were just a herd
of potential cash cows they were trying to round up.

A friend who worked in a fully unionized lab couldn't even change
light bulbs in the lab equipment: that task was reserved for the
Electrician's Union. If a spectrophotometer bulb went out, they
had to call down, the electrician would eventually appear and
take the old bulb and mosey down to the electrician's supply room
and eventually come back with a bulb of the same type and get the
replacement done. What would have been a 5-minute maintenance
task in my hospital could take an hour or more in hers, delaying
critical lab work at times, but as long as the union had its turf
protected, they didn't care.

Tsu Dho Nimh

--
When businesses invoke the "protection of consumers," it's a lot like
politicians invoking morality and children - grab your wallet and/or
your kid and run for your life.

"Bob Hauck" <postmaster@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
news:slrnbqgojr.qq.postmaster@cardinal.haucks.org. ..
Me to. I think programmers are a commodity.

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?

Kingbarry2000 wrote:

Are they? Depends on *what* they program, I'd think
If you mean "VB"-programmers you are right.
--
Hardware, n.:
The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.

Jim Richardson wrote:

So, you're saying that people are corrupt. Duh! Of course every organization
is corrupt at some level. Even so, it is important to have an organization
behind you.

That is the way the anti-union people like you to think. What about a decent
wage? What about "governence" of the profession, like tests and
qualifications? What about retirement? What about strength in numbers when
your company moves your job to india and forces you to train your
replacement.

The jobs going to india are not so the company can get out of bankruptcy,
they are going to india because the already quite profitable companies want
not to pay you a decent wage, This is exactly why unions were formed. To
protect workers from greedy companies.


The "anti-union" sentiment in this country is largely promoted by the people
who have a vested interest in keeping people from unionizing.

What is "Roadway?" Obviously you were in a bad union. Just because you had
one bad experience doesn't mean the whole idea was bad. Take my dad's
union, "Local 7 Iron Workers." You have to admit that being an Iron Worker
is a dangerous profession, right? We the union sets standards for the jobs,
allows union formen to say the weather is too dangerous, etc. The accident
rate on the non-union job is very high because they don't have the
protection of the union. The union provides training. The union provides
retirement. The union, as a whole, can force a settlement when there is a
dispute.

Just because you had a lot of unprofessional people in a union, doesn't mean
that a professional union would be the same.

The union is important, and if a profession has one, you should join it.
Unions work if they have the best people. If the best people are not union,
then there is no benefit to a company to use a union. If however, the best
and most capable people are in the union, then there is value and bargening
power.

"Peter Köhlmann" <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:boaon3$8ra$02$5@news.t-online.com...

No, all are.

--
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?

Kingbarry2000 wrote:

Well, then try to find someone who would be able to do my job.
Hint: Any good C++ programmer can do it. After studying the existant code
for quite some time. This "quite some time" costs money. Lots of it
--
Microsoft's Guide To System Design:
Let it get in YOUR way. The problem for your problem.

"Peter Köhlmann" <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:boareo$al5$07$1@news.t-online.com...
Well Peter, if it was written in VB any commodity coder could do it.
Yes, C++ costs a lot of 'time', thats why the reptiles rule today.
From what I hear, Cobol ++ is replacing C ++ in the minds of a lot of
coders.

--
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?

Kingbarry2000 wrote:

Nope. Since when is VB available for linux?

Really? From what I hear you seem to have no clue
--
My other computer is your windows box

poster->Peter =?ISO-8859-15?Q?K=F6hlmann?= <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de>

mono ( vb.net )

"Peter Köhlmann" <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:boaugg$mpf$05$1@news.t-online.com...
Ever wonder why linux is so far behind ? hint : VB

I do so. Just to prove it: Candlestick.


--
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,
minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
?

jbailo wrote:

I seem to recall that I mentioned several times here that I will *never* do
any NET idiocy
--
Tact, n.:
The unsaid part of what you're thinking.

poster->Peter =?ISO-8859-15?Q?K=F6hlmann?= <Peter.Koehlmann@t-online.de>

LOOK TRINA.

YOU ASKED A QUESTION

I ANSWERED IT.

I DIDN'T SAY 'USE DOTNET'

AND MONO ISN'T DOT NET

DOT GNU ISN'T DOT NET

YOU ARE THE IDIOT BECAUSE IF WE
DONT WRITE IN 3 WORD SENTENCES
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

GO TAKE SOME ESL COURSES AT YOUR
LOCAL COMMUNITY COLLECT

WHAT A FUCKHEAD YOU ARE

jbailo wrote:

Idiot
--
In Seattle, Washington, it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon
that is over six feet in length.