I just ordered a Canon iP4500, which has two black cartridges, a dye based
one and a larger pigment based one, for text.

When you print out a page that is mostly text, but has colour on it as well,
does it still use the pigment based ink? What about if you print out a
colour map from Google Maps, for example? What about a PDF file of a
magazine page, which is text, but with a light coloured background (maybe
with a pattern)?

Would it just use the dye based ink for these types of page, or does it
somehow know what is type or not? I could imagine that being easy with a
PostScript printer, or can the printer driver know this now, and so the
pigment ink is used?

ss.

"Synapse Syndrome" <synapse@NOSPAMgomez404.elitemail.org> wrote in message
news:SIydnbb-bP-C5QHanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com...
Pretty simply, actually. If you select plain paper, it uses pigment. If you
select any other type of paper, dye. Duplex printing also forces dye to
speed drying times.

"DanG" <nospam@q.com> wrote in message
news_udnfZfgI9kBQHanZ2dnUVZ_qmlnZ2d@comcast.com. ..

Oh, that's a bit crap. I was planning to use the duplex printing quite a
bit.

So with plain paper, even if I have a company logo printed in colour, at the
top, the letter body text will be printed in pigment ink still? Even when
colour is used in the background, as long as 'Plain Paper' is selected,
pigment is used? And what about a Google Map, printed on plain paper?
Maybe I should wait, and check myself.

Cheers

ss.

Synapse Syndrome wrote:
It is my understanding that the pigment ink is only used on black and
white documents printed on plain paper. Once any of the other ink tanks
are used it switches to the dye based black no matter what type of paper
is specified.

"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
news:2pCdnbJaXOeSJQHanZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com ...
This is wrong. Any time that you select plain paper, the pigment black is
used. (except for duplex). The only time dye black is used is when other
paper types are selected, (or duplex).

DanG wrote:
Thanks for the clarification.

On 1/27/2008 2:09 PM, Michael Johnson wrote:
I'm not so sure that is correct, and it contradicts everything I've read
over the years. In addition to using the dye ink for double-sided
printing, it also uses the dye black when it uses the other colors
(which are also dye). That is because the pigment black doesn't blend
properly with the dye inks.

Bernie wrote:
I'm not sold I was wrong either but I don't have the time to look it up.
I believe it was something I read here a long time ago.

"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com ...
Well I was planning on printing my company logo at the top of pages I print
out, and if that means that the text gets printed in the dye ink, I should
have got another B&W laser instead.

ss.

"Synapse Syndrome" <synapse@NOSPAMgomez404.elitemail.org> wrote in message
news:d7udnShdmr_tugDanZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...

I don't know about. I just suspect it uses pigmented ink when 100% solid
black (for plain paper). In all other cases, I suppose it uses dye ink. For
example in the case you mentioned, it should use pigmented for text (100%
black) and dye black for the logo and for grays, etc.

--

Yianni
jir9_2006@yahoo.gr (áöáéñÝóôå ôïí áñéèìü åííéÜ áðü ôï email)

Correct

Yianni wrote:
The configuration of the jets in the head are different for the pigment
black than the other dye cartridges. For this reason I don't see how
the pigment jets can work with the dye jets to lay down the ink with
enough precision. They are physically different and located apart from
each other.

"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
news:deCdnd2HoIYUpQDanZ2dnUVZ_rKtnZ2d@giganews.com ...

That is not an issue, as the printer "knows" how far apart the various
nozzles are, as well as the nominal sizes of the ink drops. The clever
printer firmware can handle properly placing inks from different printheads
in the proper locations on the paper.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

Good information to know, Thanks.

Does the black pigment ink work properly with non-plain papers?

I know on some older pigment ink Epson printers, the black ink would
(the C80 for instance) not adhere to the original photo quality gloss
papers (it would not normally be used by the printer, but you could
"trick" it by using the plain paper driver and placing a glossy page in.)

The ink was designed to dry very rapidly, so it lacked the resins
required to adhere the ink to the glossy papers. The newer formulations
(for Epson pigment printers) added the resin to the black ink, and they
also released a specially surfaced paper for the C80 which would allow
the black ink to integrate into the surface.

Art

DanG wrote:

Bob Headrick wrote:
The pigment row of jets is physically longer then the dye rows. It is
actually 2-3 times longer and doesn't line up with the dye rows evenly.
This would mean only a small part of the row of pigment jets would
fire when printing with the other dye rows on the same pass. The jet
configuration in the head seems to indicate to me that the pigment jets
work by themselves and the dye jets work only with each other. Add to
this the inks are different makeups and the pigment jets max out at 600
dpi while the dye jets max out at 1,200-4,800 dpi and I don't see how
they can work together. Anyone have any links to webs sites that
confirms this one way or the other?

I can't speak specifically about the Canon drivers, but I can speak a
bit about ink technology.

You are correct that the dye inks does not blend well with the pigment
black ink. This is a problem with coated papers where the inks need to
interact to create a photo quality result, and where the gloss factor
needs to be identical between the different colors, or you get bronzing
or gloss differential. Also, pigment inks require adhesives to stick to
most glossy papers, because the pigment ink particles tend to sit on the
paper surface.

However, on plain paper, the inks penetrate even if they are pigment
colorant based, in fact, in denser areas using a pigment black can help
to hold the darker areas tighter because the pigment inks tend to have
lower dot gain, making the black ink create a better edge and sharper
looking image. That's one reason (besides that the ink is less fugitive
to light) for using a black pigment ink for text. Pigment black is also
more dense and needs less ink for the same density coverage, and that
too helps to limit dot gain.

So, although I am not weighing in one which of you is correct, since I
don't know for sure, it would not be unreasonable to assume the pigment
black is used for the plain paper images regardless of the image type
and not used with the drivers for coated papers.


Art

Bernie wrote:

Why not test it if you already have the printer operating. The pigment
black ink look qualitatively different than the dye black inks. It sits
more on the surface, is more dense and velvety black, and it looks sharper.

Take the same letter with the colored logo, and print it once on the
plain paper setting, and once on the glossy or inkjet matte setting, but
print all on plain paper.

If the one on plain paper has black text which looks different it
probably means that different black inks were used.

Another way to check... after printing each, wait for them to dry well
and then take a part of the paper with black text ink and place it in
warm water. If the lettering bleeds badly, the ink is dye, if the ink
pretty much sits and doesn't bleed, it is probably pigment. The reason
I say probably is that some "pigment" inks are actually hybrids with
some dyes to darken or color correct them to make them more neutral.

Art

Synapse Syndrome wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:CCcnj.19335$ow.7324@pd7urf1no...
Can't speak for all papers, but generally, coated paper is a bad match for
pigment black. Heavy paper with a shiny surface also tends to have issues
with drying and smudging.

"Michael Johnson" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message
news:vZWdndDtYIHGvgDanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com ...
I'll just add one very specific piece of evidence. I have a IP3000 that has
no dye black, and it blends the pigment black with the dye colors all day
long. (On plain paper only). It's very easy to tell, because it's
black-black. When the printer uses color inks to make black on photo/premium
paper settings, it's not black-black. These are the same inks used in IP4xxx
printers. I'll also add that on a IP4xxx printer, if you never use anything
but plain paper settings, the dye black ink takes about a year to run out,
as it's only expended in cleaning cycles. And if that's not enough for you:
When you use plain paper settings on premium paper, the pigment ink is easy
to pick out because it doesn't dry and smudges easily. It also looks very
different than the dye black does on the same paper.

Arthur Entlich wrote:
I haven't tricked the printer into thinking it was printing on plain
paper while feeding it photo type paper. If I remember I'll try it
tomorrow.

As I mentioned in another post in this thread, the print head on the
iP4000 and MP780 I have doesn't look like it could print pigment ink
along with the dye ink. The pigment row is 2-3 times longer and ends
before the dye rows end. It looks to be physically improbable for the
dye jets to lay down ink properly with the pigment jets on the same pass.