I am about to have my first post-college interview on Friday. I don't
know what a good pay rate is for an entry level programmer though. The
work I have done has been voluntary or in a different capacity (like
unix admin). Assuming I am interested in the job and they ask me what I
expect to get paid I don't want to say too small or too large. On the
one hand they may think I don't understand my worth and am therefor
unqualified and not consider me, and on the other hand they may think I
expect too much and won't consider me.

What is a decent rate for an entry level programmer in the Pacific
Northwest (US)? In the past I have been paid from $10-$15 per hour but
like I said, somewhat different job types and as a student employee or
intern.

Thanks,
NR


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Noah Roberts wrote:

Don't discuss compensation in your interview. If they ask, change
the subject back to the merits and information session. Compensation
discussions are reserved for the 2nd (if your lucky) or third
interviews, and that is with the hiring manager. The hiring manager
knows the budget and what can be spent.

Read up on interviewing techniques. Try the book, "What Color Is
Your Parachute?" The interviewing process is for gather information
and screening. The employer wants to know your abilities and is
screening the phonys from the actuals. Your task is to gain
information about the company and to screen them. Ask yourself,
"Is this a place I want to spend many years with?". Remember,
communication is a two-way street.

Generally there are at least three interviews:
1. Screening by Human Resources / Personell.
2. Initial conversations with hiring manager.
3. Detailed conversations with experts and your future
associates.
4. The hiring interview: compensation and evaluation.
In all these interviews, you are giving _them_ information
about what you can do for their company and at the same
time, gather information for yourself about working conditions
and what they are looking for. Think about the interviews
as a detective game.

Anyway you can search the internet for statistics?
Perhaps, include "human resources" in the keyword list.

One issue is that many corporations are outsourcing entry level
programming tasks. You may want to keep this in mind in the
interviews when you tell them how you can benefit their
company over the benefits of outsourcing.

--
Thomas Matthews

C++ newsgroup welcome message:
http://www.slack.net/~shiva/welcome.txt
C++ Faq: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite
C Faq: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/c-faq/top.html
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++ faq:
http://www.raos.demon.uk/acllc-c++/faq.html
Other sites:
http://www.josuttis.com -- C++ STL Library book

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Noah Roberts wrote:

I don't have an immediate answer for you but I can tell you how I would go
about finding it. Go to www.google.com and search for "salary survey" (no
quotes). If that gives you too many try narrowing down the search with the
region, a city, the text "IT" or combinations of these.

A good survey will also factor in cost of living. For my country Robert
Half Technologies has a really good survey that lists the different jobs
by title and region. At the bottom of each region is a factor number. So
if you live in CityA multiple the given value by 0.8, if you live in CityB
multiple the given value by 1.4, etc.

The Robert Half Technologies survey also lists skills that increase your
value and notes by how much. For example, "Cisco certification adds
$1000".

It's been a few years since I looked this stuff up myself. It would take
me a few days to dig up my references. The Robert Half Technologies sticks
in my mind because they send me a copy every year (I get it as an employer
hiring people; not as a potential employee looking for work).

--
Send e-mail to: darrell at cs dot toronto dot edu
Don't send e-mail to vice.president@whitehouse.gov

Noah Roberts wrote:

My main advice is to consider people's objectives. An HR department
wants to tick off skills on a CV, and look at your grades. So present
that clearly. A fellow-programmer wants someone he can rely on, can
chat to and have a laugh with. A team leader wants someone who can
deliver and communicate. Try to open up and relax - easier said than
done especially if you are forced into wearing a suit.

Pay isn't everything. If they offer you a low salary that's bad news -
not because you get less pocket money, but because the job will probably
not stretch you enough and you won't be learning new skills. Exposure
to new skills and technology areas should be your main criteria, as well
as friendly faces.

Calum

Noah Roberts wrote:
I agree with others who suggest that you do not answer the question. This
employer should know exactly what the going rate is for entry-level programmers
in their area. The only reason for them to ask the question is to see if *you*
know, and to see if they can take advantage of you. In the end, this question
serves only them and can only hurt you.

Remember too, you're interviewing them. If they make too low an offer or treat
you unprofessionally, you should know that they are playing games or they're
simply disreputable, and you should look elsewhere (if at all possible).

BTW, in general, depending on where you live in the country, an entry-level BS
in CS should be able to net $40,000 to $50,000 as a starting salary. If you
work as a consultant, your hourly rate should be at *least* $30/hour (about
$60,000/year). But remember that contractors get no benefits, so you may want
to hold out for a bit more than $30/hour to pay for down time, time off,
insurances, etc. Of course, in the most expensive locales in the US, the rates
are higher. In the least expensive, lower. AFAIK, the pacific NW varies --
Seattle and Portland have above average cost of living. But Portland and
Seattle probably still have a *lot* of unemployed IT folks from the IT bust of
2000, which will keep salaries down for experienced programmers.

A final suggestion: don't sell yourself short just to land a job. You'll be
seen as a cheap date and not a prize find.

Randy

--
Randy Crawford http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~rand rand AT rice DOT edu

Elspeth Thorne <notelsie@humanfactors.uq.edu.au> writes:

Personally, I would never wear a suit to an interview. If a
company judges potential employees based on whether they where a
suit to the interview, rather than on technical qualifications,
it's not a company I want to work for.
--
"Unix... is not so much a product
as it is a painstakingly compiled oral history
of the hacker subculture."
--Neal Stephenson

Elspeth Thorne wrote:

[SNIP]

And, if you get really lucky, the "real manager" will
say to you as one said to me once about my suit.
"Now that we see you own one, you only have to wear
it for customer meetings."

Note: I still wear a tweed or corduroy jacket to
customer meetings. At my age it makes me look like
a university professor to them. That's part of the
image. (Leather elbow patches optional).

--
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof
because fools are so ingenious"
- A. Bloch

In article <ccl1gu$c0q$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, notelsie@humanfactors.uq.edu.au
says...
It can (and does) in the US as well. If you can't be placed in front
of an important customer, and/or present to the CEO of your or some
other company (which typically requires you to dress like an adult
instead of a beach bum), then you are not likely to be considered
for a high grade technical position at a *lot* of companies. However,
sometimes technical people would rather be unemployed then expected
to wear nice clothing, even if it is only once a year or less. That's
cool, it's their choice.

Bingo.

--
Randy Howard
To reply, remove FOOBAR.

Ben Pfaff writes:

"Would never".... How many interviews have you been on?

It's not a binary switch, it's a scale. Perhaps showing up
in professional attire shows your interest in the job and
your willingness to step up to the plate when required. It
also shows a willingness to--considering you are a guest--
(at least) respect their point of view.

At worst, it's a simple act that has zero-or-positive effect
in a process that's saying, "Hey, pick ME!"

Now consider the message of the expressed attitude that, "I
don't *need* to wear a suit. I don't *care* if I raise your
eyebrows during this crucial first impression time."

Now,... I'm not saying that's a bad thing (I can't, I'm
guilty of it :-). I'm just suggesting your actions should be
fully intentional with effects in mind rather than, perhaps,
driven by attitudes about something as ultimately meaningless
as attire.

Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> writes:

Did I really write that? I meant "wear", of course.

--
"Be circumspect in your liaisons with women.
It is better to be seen at the opera with a man
than at mass with a woman."
--De Maintenon

Elspeth Thorne <notelsie@humanfactors.uq.edu.au> writes:

I've never seen any of the programmers where I work (part-time)
wear a suit. I've even helped interview potential employees
here, and *they* didn't wear suits either. This is a division of
a multi-billion dollar company. Indeed, northern California and
(your part of) Australia must have entirely different cultures.
--
"It takes a certain amount of shamelessness
to be a monomaniac billionaire dwarf."
--Jon Katz <URL:http://slashdot.org/articles/99/03/17/1634238.shtml>

Programmer Dude <Chris@Sonnack.com> writes:

Not a large number. Between 5 and 10 I'd guess. I'm still a
Ph.D. student you understand.

I think that there's a disconnect here. You and some others in
this newsgroup (apparently) see suits as professional and other
attire as unprofessional. At least, that's what I infer from
that paragraph above. But the place I work employs 200 very
professional programmers, and anyone who shows up in a suit is
likely to make the rest wonder where's the funeral. Heck, the
company gives out a new t-shirt at every product launch, and
every day a large fraction the programmers are wearing one of
them. This is not uncommon in Silicon Valley; e.g. from what I
saw from my interview at Google, the culture there is pretty much
the same.

Sure. But it works both ways: because attire is ultimately
meaningless, I don't want to work for someone who can't handle
the idea of me not wearing a suit.
--
Ben Pfaff
email: blp@cs.stanford.edu
web: http://benpfaff.org

Thanks for the input guys. Internet surveys seem to think 60-80 +
benefits is average for this area. That would be nice.

Funny thing, I went and got a hair cut today to prepare and I think I
might have to wear a hat because of it :P Hopefully this isn't a sign...

This is my first serious interview so it should definitely be a learning
experience. All others were basically job offers with little
'interviewing'. But there were some financial benefits for hiring me.

Anyway, thanks...I go to prepare for tomorrow...

NR


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Elspeth Thorne wrote:
Unfortunately, I don't even own one. I have a decent pair of slacks, a
tie, and 2 decent shirts. That's as dressed up as I ever get :P I may
have to go to a second hand store and get something nice if I run into
trouble...

NR


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Noah Roberts wrote:

Don't bring it up unless they do. If they do, tell them you expect to
be paid an amount commensurate with other programmers (with similar
experience doing similar jobs) in that area, and then say no more unless
they push for a number. Know what that above amount is if they do push.
Aim a little high, since if you say $x and they say $x + 5000, it's a
bit hard to jump to $x + 10000, which was what happened to me.
(Obviously that's a very happy circumstance!)

I think starting wages range from $40k to > $65k, depending on area.

--
Pull out a splinter to reply.

Noah Roberts wrote:

Write back with how it went!!!

--
Pull out a splinter to reply.

Elspeth Thorne <notelsie@humanfactors.uq.edu.au> wrote in message news:<ccl1gu$c0q$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>...
I agree with Elspeth.

"Business casual" has just as many rules as the traditional business
attire. "Business casual" is MUCH harder to keep neat than suit and
tie, because "business casual" is inherently without structure. This
means that small amounts of dirt or wrinkling have a larger effect
than they do on the structure of suit and tie, which was designed over
time to make men look spiffy in dirty cities and industrial
environments.

The abandonment of suit and tie is a false generational disjuncture
which is "coded" as declaring "we won't be like our fathers, and
impose silly rules: instead we will be responsive to the real content
of the world".

Which manages neatly to ignore the fact that the real content of the
real world is MOSTLY how people react, with the result that in
business casual environments there are more rules about dress than an
environment which states simply that male employees shall wear a tie.

Some of those rules may be unspoken but they are none the less real.

Business casual in particular is a subtle form of age discrimination
because it makes older male employees look like stew bums.

But to return to programming: a mentor of mine who worked for IBM wore
the IBM uniform in the 1950s but not once did he let his employer do
his thinking for them. John Backus, wearing the uniform, created the
first usable compiler.

Today, it seems at least to me, the FBI programmers may wear business
casual but they still make a mess.

I conclude that it is an INSULT to wear anything other than a suit and
tie to an interview if male, or professional wimmen attire if female.

In techdom it is the arrogant claim that one is so great as a
technician that one can do as one pleases. Today, most companies feel
compelled to use high tech and they have NO perception that it is much
more than a necessary headache. People who feel that they are living
legends who can show up in jeans and sneakers should be and are shown
the door.

Calum wrote:

And my advice on that last point is to wear a suit every once in a while
anyway, even if you have no reason to do so. If you're applying for jobs
that may require you to wear a suit, it will pay to at least be
comfortable in the damn thing. When you feel uncomfortable, you tend to
look it as well - and being uncomfortable is not usually the impression
you are trying to give.

Just my 2c for the minute.


Elspeth.

Ben Pfaff wrote:
Perhaps the culture is different over there. Over here, that sort of
attitude can get you dismissed out-of-hand as unprofessional. Technical
qualifications say very little - if anything - about attitude. In some
environments, professionalism is expressed by manner of dress. Sure, if
the dress code is sneakers and jeans, rock up in that. But if everyone
in sight is wearing suits, and you're dressed in a shirt that looks
slept in and shoes that are falling apart...that doesn't say a lot for
your intentions to fit in with the work environment. Or for your
seriousness about getting this job. First impressions count. With few
exceptions, if you look like a mess, or below-standard, that's what the
prospective employer will assume you are like in the rest of your work.

They may hire you anyway - because your qualifications are so stellar.
And, of course, if you're the paramount expert in your field, wear
whatever you please. But that's highly unlikely at entry-level.

And my comments are not intended to imply that if you dress up, you get
hired, no matter what your qualifications are, whereas if you have
qualifications but look relatively scruffy you'll never get a job.

It is simply an observation of mine that if you look like you already
work there, they will consider you more favourably.

A truism around here springs to mind: "Dress for what you want to be
paid." I know of several cases where doing just that has jumped their
pay rate, not because of any increase in skill, but because of an
increase in perceived worth. Managers and HR people judge by appearances.


Another 2c donated.

Elspeth.

Ben Pfaff wrote:

At no point did I say 'You must wear a suit to each and every
interview'. What I did say, was that /if appropriate/, wear a suit. As a
piece of clothing that is typically not worn very often, get used to
wearing it, so that when you /should/ wear one, you at least don't look
like you desperately want out.

And there are quite a few places I know of around here where the
standard for programmers is 'no visible holes in clothing'. So, turn up
in smart casual wear.

How much the company makes has very little to do with the dress standard
of the place, and a lot to do with who the place deals with. If your
programmers never see the CEO or the customer, well, they don't have to
dress to impress. If, however, you want a job where you are effectively
'on display' once in a while...it's to your advantage if you can show
that you have the required skills to do that. And make no mistake;
dressing well as appropriate is a skill. Either way, it pays to be
comfortable in whatever you end up wearing.

More 2c.

Elspeth.