I hope you don't think me impudent, but I do know a little about EPGs, TV
schedules and how it all works in the United Kingdom.

But first let me say that I just LOVE the Windows Vista Media Centre as a
Personal Video Recorder! With a 750 GB drive to store TV on, the amazing
interface and easy of use, it makes Sky's HD box seem like a ZX Spectrum!

There is one tiny problem, and it is the accuracy of the Electronic
Programme Guide. I understand that in the UK, this is supplied to Microsoft
by Gypsy Media, who do the DigiGuide product.

The problem is that in the UK, the broadcasters use very finely adjusted -
to the second - schedules to try and gain advantage over each other. So, for
example a programme that is in the EPG from 20:30-21:00, it will run from
20:29:44-20:59:44.

Sky+ and Freeview playback boxes KNOW this, and use this data to get the
correct recording.

And you, dear Microsoft, can too.

The BBC publishes the information, for example:

http://www0.rdthdo.bbc.co.uk/service...rogrammes.html

And you get:

http://tinyurl.com/3c4cb9

The information is contained thus:


<ProgramURL>dvb://233a.1004.1044;4a99@2008-01-28T20:29:44Z/PT00H30M</ProgramURL>

If you would be so kind as to use the correct information in the EPG, you
would transform the UK Media Centre into a truly ACCURATE personal video
recorder.

Yours hopefully,

Briantist

http://www.ukfree.tv


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http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com....mediacent er

In media center settings/recording set start 1 minute before and stop 1
minute after. That should capture any variability in timing. Also have your
PC time synchronization occur slightly before prime time or whenever you do
most recording because PC time can lose/gain those seconds easily between
syncs.


"Briantist" <Briantist@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
newsAB45783-4FD9-4BB6-93C1-4A6613E5CA63@microsoft.com...

In media center settings/recording set start 1 minute before and stop 1
minute after. That should capture any variability in timing. Also have your
PC time synchronization occur slightly before prime time or whenever you do
most recording because PC time can lose/gain those seconds easily between
syncs.


"Briantist" <Briantist@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
newsAB45783-4FD9-4BB6-93C1-4A6613E5CA63@microsoft.com...

I'm afraid that you are wrong.

The programming on BBC TWO and BBC ONE vaires by much more than one minute,
and this is published.

I have been discussing this matter with the BBC on BBC Backstage.

Please see:

http://tinyurl.com/32ba2n



- <ScheduleEvent>
<Program crid="crid://bbc.co.uk/277104868" />

<ProgramURL>dvb://233a.1004.1084;48e4@2008-01-28T21:00:59Z/PT00H59M</ProgramURL>
<InstanceMetadataId>imi:bbc.co.uk/277104868</InstanceMetadataId>
<PublishedStartTime>2008-01-28T21:00:00Z</PublishedStartTime>
<PublishedDuration>PT01H00M00S</PublishedDuration>
</ScheduleEvent>
- <ScheduleEvent>
<Program crid="crid://bbc.co.uk/277104856" />

<ProgramURL>dvb://233a.1004.1084;48d8@2008-01-28T22:02:14Z/PT00H29M</ProgramURL>
<PublishedStartTime>2008-01-28T22:00:00Z</PublishedStartTime>
<PublishedDuration>PT00H30M00S</PublishedDuration>
</ScheduleEvent>
- <ScheduleEvent>
<Program crid="crid://bbc.co.uk/277104882" />

<ProgramURL>dvb://233a.1004.1084;48f2@2008-01-28T22:32:30Z/PT00H47M</ProgramURL>
<PublishedStartTime>2008-01-28T22:30:00Z</PublishedStartTime>
<PublishedDuration>PT00H50M00S</PublishedDuration>
</ScheduleEvent>
- <ScheduleEvent>
<Program crid="crid://bbc.co.uk/277104890" />

<ProgramURL>dvb://233a.1004.1084;48fa@2008-01-28T23:21:15Z/PT00H58M</ProgramURL>
<PublishedStartTime>2008-01-28T23:20:00Z</PublishedStartTime>
<PublishedDuration>PT01H00M00S</PublishedDuration>
</ScheduleEvent>
</Schedule>

See?


21:00 is 21:00:59 1h is 0h59m
22:00 is 22:02:14 30m is 29m
22:30 is 22:32:30 50m is 47m
23:20 is 23:21:15 1h is 58m

Now, can I have my EPG use the correct data please?

"Cameron Snyder" wrote:

I'm afraid that you are wrong.

The programming on BBC TWO and BBC ONE vaires by much more than one minute,
and this is published.

I have been discussing this matter with the BBC on BBC Backstage.

Please see:

http://tinyurl.com/32ba2n



- <ScheduleEvent>
<Program crid="crid://bbc.co.uk/277104868" />

<ProgramURL>dvb://233a.1004.1084;48e4@2008-01-28T21:00:59Z/PT00H59M</ProgramURL>
<InstanceMetadataId>imi:bbc.co.uk/277104868</InstanceMetadataId>
<PublishedStartTime>2008-01-28T21:00:00Z</PublishedStartTime>
<PublishedDuration>PT01H00M00S</PublishedDuration>
</ScheduleEvent>
- <ScheduleEvent>
<Program crid="crid://bbc.co.uk/277104856" />

<ProgramURL>dvb://233a.1004.1084;48d8@2008-01-28T22:02:14Z/PT00H29M</ProgramURL>
<PublishedStartTime>2008-01-28T22:00:00Z</PublishedStartTime>
<PublishedDuration>PT00H30M00S</PublishedDuration>
</ScheduleEvent>
- <ScheduleEvent>
<Program crid="crid://bbc.co.uk/277104882" />

<ProgramURL>dvb://233a.1004.1084;48f2@2008-01-28T22:32:30Z/PT00H47M</ProgramURL>
<PublishedStartTime>2008-01-28T22:30:00Z</PublishedStartTime>
<PublishedDuration>PT00H50M00S</PublishedDuration>
</ScheduleEvent>
- <ScheduleEvent>
<Program crid="crid://bbc.co.uk/277104890" />

<ProgramURL>dvb://233a.1004.1084;48fa@2008-01-28T23:21:15Z/PT00H58M</ProgramURL>
<PublishedStartTime>2008-01-28T23:20:00Z</PublishedStartTime>
<PublishedDuration>PT01H00M00S</PublishedDuration>
</ScheduleEvent>
</Schedule>

See?


21:00 is 21:00:59 1h is 0h59m
22:00 is 22:02:14 30m is 29m
22:30 is 22:32:30 50m is 47m
23:20 is 23:21:15 1h is 58m

Now, can I have my EPG use the correct data please?

"Cameron Snyder" wrote:

Well the times you "published" in your post varied only by 16 seconds. Who's
going to take the time to try to decipher that other URL stuff anyway. I'm
in the US where broadcasts start on the published time usually within
seconds for clock variation. So the > one minute variation you talk about
seems a bit chaotic to me. No wonder you're upset.

Your broadcaster is the more appropriate vector for your complaint.

"Briantist" <Briantist@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:7F3D0633-EAC4-47C1-B02C-E259E05BF558@microsoft.com...

Well the times you "published" in your post varied only by 16 seconds. Who's
going to take the time to try to decipher that other URL stuff anyway. I'm
in the US where broadcasts start on the published time usually within
seconds for clock variation. So the > one minute variation you talk about
seems a bit chaotic to me. No wonder you're upset.

Your broadcaster is the more appropriate vector for your complaint.

"Briantist" <Briantist@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:7F3D0633-EAC4-47C1-B02C-E259E05BF558@microsoft.com...

"Cameron Snyder" wrote:

It is a great shame that you can't read. One of the examples is clearly out
by 150 second. I don't think much of your maths skills.

Who's
It's in the standard TV Anytime format which is a form of XML.

I'm
I'm not upset, I am asking for the product that I have paid for to operate
correctly. I care not a slight about how the product works in the United
States.

I said already that I have discussed this in great depth with the
broadcaster. It seems that they will not change their scheudles for the
opertation of a Microsoft product and the BBC feel that Microsoft should use
the scheuldes that they already accuratly publish.

"Cameron Snyder" wrote:

It is a great shame that you can't read. One of the examples is clearly out
by 150 second. I don't think much of your maths skills.

Who's
It's in the standard TV Anytime format which is a form of XML.

I'm
I'm not upset, I am asking for the product that I have paid for to operate
correctly. I care not a slight about how the product works in the United
States.

I said already that I have discussed this in great depth with the
broadcaster. It seems that they will not change their scheudles for the
opertation of a Microsoft product and the BBC feel that Microsoft should use
the scheuldes that they already accuratly publish.

I can't tell definitely, but the BBC data you linked to may be in XMLTV
format. The Radio Times for example provides FREE 14 days data in XMLTV
format for all UK channels (not just the BBC).

See http://xmltv.org/wiki/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLTV

If the BBC is using it's own special format then unfortunately the
likelihood of Microsoft supporting it, even considering the importance of
the BBC as a broadcaster is zero. If however it is standard XMLTV format
then I would agree Microsoft should consider adding support for it.

The XMLTV format is used in many competing Media Center type applications,
and is used around the world, including countries for which Microsoft
currently don't have a guide source themselves.

From what I have read, it sounds like the next Microsoft Media Center update
may also support the embedded DVB guide (which in my opinion is rounded to
the nearest five minute interval meaning it can suffer from the problem you
describe). However I have not seen any indication they will support XMLTV.

Note: While you are right about the timing issue, Media Center can pad
recordings by a defined amount which usually is good enough to get round
these problems. What is annoying is that the series record feature
constantly makes mistakes.

On 28/1/08 19:59, in article
DAB45783-4FD9-4BB6-93C1-4A6613E5CA63@microsoft.com, "Briantist"
<Briantist@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

I can't tell definitely, but the BBC data you linked to may be in XMLTV
format. The Radio Times for example provides FREE 14 days data in XMLTV
format for all UK channels (not just the BBC).

See http://xmltv.org/wiki/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLTV

If the BBC is using it's own special format then unfortunately the
likelihood of Microsoft supporting it, even considering the importance of
the BBC as a broadcaster is zero. If however it is standard XMLTV format
then I would agree Microsoft should consider adding support for it.

The XMLTV format is used in many competing Media Center type applications,
and is used around the world, including countries for which Microsoft
currently don't have a guide source themselves.

From what I have read, it sounds like the next Microsoft Media Center update
may also support the embedded DVB guide (which in my opinion is rounded to
the nearest five minute interval meaning it can suffer from the problem you
describe). However I have not seen any indication they will support XMLTV.

Note: While you are right about the timing issue, Media Center can pad
recordings by a defined amount which usually is good enough to get round
these problems. What is annoying is that the series record feature
constantly makes mistakes.

On 28/1/08 19:59, in article
DAB45783-4FD9-4BB6-93C1-4A6613E5CA63@microsoft.com, "Briantist"
<Briantist@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

"John Lockwood" wrote:

The format is in TV Anytime format, for that is the format I selected!

http://www.tv-anytime.org/




They really don't need to do that. They just need to ask their supplier who
alreay has it to provide it to them...



There is no need for them to. Microsoft get the information from Digiguide,
Digiguide gets it from the BBC, the BBC data has the correct information.

It's basic computing - crap in, crap out.

What is the point of having a computer system that CAN do something
automatically for you, but doesn't? There's no point having a dog and
barking yourself.

"John Lockwood" wrote:

The format is in TV Anytime format, for that is the format I selected!

http://www.tv-anytime.org/




They really don't need to do that. They just need to ask their supplier who
alreay has it to provide it to them...



There is no need for them to. Microsoft get the information from Digiguide,
Digiguide gets it from the BBC, the BBC data has the correct information.

It's basic computing - crap in, crap out.

What is the point of having a computer system that CAN do something
automatically for you, but doesn't? There's no point having a dog and
barking yourself.

"Briantist" wrote:

Well, first of all, I don't think there's any need to get shirty about this.

Your example data publication from the BBC is purely experimental - it can
be inaccurate or removed at any moment in time. It's unrealistic to expect
Microsoft to modify their product to take this particular feed to construct
the EPG for the BBC channels, another feed for, say, ITV, another for Channel
4, etc. Also, this wouldn't work for last-minute rescheduling of programmes
due to live events overrunning, for example, as the Media Center EPG is not
constantly being updated.

This is completely different to the way that Sky and Freeview work. Sky
picks up triggers that are broadcast real-time by the BBC to determine the
exact start and end time of a programme. Some Freeview boxes also support
such triggers although many do not. The BBC does make an effort to make last
minute updates to the EPG of both Freeview and Sky but this does NOT have any
effect on any scheduled recordings - these use the triggers I mentioned.

I've used Media Center for over 18 months in conjunction with my Sky box. By
default I set programmes to start recording 2 minutes before their scheduled
time (unless of course I am recording the previous programme). I can honestly
say that I've only ever recording an entire programme once due to a sports
event overrunning.

Regards,

Chris

"Briantist" wrote:

Well, first of all, I don't think there's any need to get shirty about this.

Your example data publication from the BBC is purely experimental - it can
be inaccurate or removed at any moment in time. It's unrealistic to expect
Microsoft to modify their product to take this particular feed to construct
the EPG for the BBC channels, another feed for, say, ITV, another for Channel
4, etc. Also, this wouldn't work for last-minute rescheduling of programmes
due to live events overrunning, for example, as the Media Center EPG is not
constantly being updated.

This is completely different to the way that Sky and Freeview work. Sky
picks up triggers that are broadcast real-time by the BBC to determine the
exact start and end time of a programme. Some Freeview boxes also support
such triggers although many do not. The BBC does make an effort to make last
minute updates to the EPG of both Freeview and Sky but this does NOT have any
effect on any scheduled recordings - these use the triggers I mentioned.

I've used Media Center for over 18 months in conjunction with my Sky box. By
default I set programmes to start recording 2 minutes before their scheduled
time (unless of course I am recording the previous programme). I can honestly
say that I've only ever recording an entire programme once due to a sports
event overrunning.

Regards,

Chris